Can't figure out!!
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Out of curiosity,I'm more of a learner than a knower, do you think your getting enough leverage with the press your using? Also could this be an issue of case hardness? Maybe resize the same case more than once or anneal. If the case is hardened enough would it flex the press rather than size the case?
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.
Today, 08:28 AM #27
JRWhit
Member
Join Date: September 13, 2012
Location: MO
Posts: 244 Out of curiosity,I'm more of a learner than a knower, do you think your getting enough leverage with the press your using? Also could this be an issue of case hardness? Maybe resize the same case more than once or anneal. If the case is hardened enough would it flex the press rather than size the case?
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.
JRWhit, Yes, if the ‘your’ in your question is referring to the presses I am using. In the reloading world there is a step sequence as in instructions to follow, first fire form, then fire and neck size the next 5 firings, after the case has jumped back, sprung back or snap back or when the case is fully grown ( which ever comes first) full length size back to minimum length to start over. I do not how that works, I find it most difficult to start over after the case has been fired 6 times.
A case that has been fired 5 times has increased in resistance to being sized. Back to my press and your question, I have presses that are guaranteed not to flex, that does not mean the die is going to give me the case back after sizing, it just means the presses have the ability to overcome the case’s ability to resist sizing. I have cases that have no memory of what they were before they were fired, I have cases that have been formed and never fired that absolutely have no memory of ever having been a 30/06 case and have never been fired, like 308 W, 257 Roberts, 7mm57, 8mm57 etc..
Your question: I have Pardoner presses I do not use, because of the range of work I do on a press it would be delegated to light work, they stay in a drawer. It is unseal for a reloader to determine if the press/die sized the case before lowering the ram, most will attempt chambering first. Then the part about how much effort is required, I have no interest, for me it would be too easy to determine the amount of effort the press produces, back to the part about sizing the case and its ability to resist sizing, again, that is easy, the part I do not like is getting the die to give the case back.
Machine gun fired, if the case is whipping the press the first culprit blamed is the machine gun, “musta been fired in a machine gun”. When helping work out a problem for/with someone they insist on using their case lube, problem, they insist I prefer their case lube, when finished?. Back to the die giving the case back, not easy to look like a reloader knows what they are doing when struggle with the press when the case will not give the case back., Imperail wax then Dillon in the bottle and Dillon in the can, and me offering to return home for something that ‘MIGHT WORK?’
We are forming cases for a few wildcat/bench rest chambers this afternoon, thought about cutting up some dies to get started then settled on a plan.
F, Guffey
JRWhit
Member
Join Date: September 13, 2012
Location: MO
Posts: 244 Out of curiosity,I'm more of a learner than a knower, do you think your getting enough leverage with the press your using? Also could this be an issue of case hardness? Maybe resize the same case more than once or anneal. If the case is hardened enough would it flex the press rather than size the case?
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.
JRWhit, Yes, if the ‘your’ in your question is referring to the presses I am using. In the reloading world there is a step sequence as in instructions to follow, first fire form, then fire and neck size the next 5 firings, after the case has jumped back, sprung back or snap back or when the case is fully grown ( which ever comes first) full length size back to minimum length to start over. I do not how that works, I find it most difficult to start over after the case has been fired 6 times.
A case that has been fired 5 times has increased in resistance to being sized. Back to my press and your question, I have presses that are guaranteed not to flex, that does not mean the die is going to give me the case back after sizing, it just means the presses have the ability to overcome the case’s ability to resist sizing. I have cases that have no memory of what they were before they were fired, I have cases that have been formed and never fired that absolutely have no memory of ever having been a 30/06 case and have never been fired, like 308 W, 257 Roberts, 7mm57, 8mm57 etc..
Your question: I have Pardoner presses I do not use, because of the range of work I do on a press it would be delegated to light work, they stay in a drawer. It is unseal for a reloader to determine if the press/die sized the case before lowering the ram, most will attempt chambering first. Then the part about how much effort is required, I have no interest, for me it would be too easy to determine the amount of effort the press produces, back to the part about sizing the case and its ability to resist sizing, again, that is easy, the part I do not like is getting the die to give the case back.
Machine gun fired, if the case is whipping the press the first culprit blamed is the machine gun, “musta been fired in a machine gun”. When helping work out a problem for/with someone they insist on using their case lube, problem, they insist I prefer their case lube, when finished?. Back to the die giving the case back, not easy to look like a reloader knows what they are doing when struggle with the press when the case will not give the case back., Imperail wax then Dillon in the bottle and Dillon in the can, and me offering to return home for something that ‘MIGHT WORK?’
We are forming cases for a few wildcat/bench rest chambers this afternoon, thought about cutting up some dies to get started then settled on a plan.
F, Guffey
armarsh
Member
If a single stage press is available, that would help sorting this out.
First, are you crimping, or is your seating die low enough for you to hit the crimp ring? It is super easy to deform the shoulder with a too-aggressive crimp.
If the crimping is not the issue, take one of the problem brass, resize it and try just the brass it in all three of your guns before proceeding.
First, are you crimping, or is your seating die low enough for you to hit the crimp ring? It is super easy to deform the shoulder with a too-aggressive crimp.
If the crimping is not the issue, take one of the problem brass, resize it and try just the brass it in all three of your guns before proceeding.
James2
Member
Full length sizing of brass requires the shell holder to touch the die with the casing in the die and at full up. If your setup meets this requirement, you can not bump the shoulder any more than this, unless you want to take out the die and mill .002 off the bottom end of the die with a piece of fine emery paper.
Please note that presses likely have some spring in them, and setting the die to just barely kiss the shell holder with no load on it may not give sufficient sizing. You need to assure the shell holder kisses the die when under load.
If you can get by without full length sizing, your brass will last longer, however if the brass came from a mix of arms, it is advisable to full length size it since different arms may vary some in dimensions.
The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.
I am not convinced it is necessary to make the press cam over to full length size properly. I like to set mine such that the shell holder hits the die at top of stroke, then turn the die in another 3/4 turn. At this point the press doesn't cam over, the pressure stroke finishes just before cam over so the max torque is in effect and the shell holder strikes the die firmly. (That part in bold is what means full length sizing.)
OK, if you don't want to full length size you can use your feeler gauges to leave .007, or so, gap between the shell holder and die at full up and try some. If you need to bump the shoulder a bit more, cut the gap down till you get what is needed. When doing this the press will cam over. It is that cam over point now that determines just how far the casing will go into the die. ( reason 2. above.)
Please note that presses likely have some spring in them, and setting the die to just barely kiss the shell holder with no load on it may not give sufficient sizing. You need to assure the shell holder kisses the die when under load.
If you can get by without full length sizing, your brass will last longer, however if the brass came from a mix of arms, it is advisable to full length size it since different arms may vary some in dimensions.
The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.
I am not convinced it is necessary to make the press cam over to full length size properly. I like to set mine such that the shell holder hits the die at top of stroke, then turn the die in another 3/4 turn. At this point the press doesn't cam over, the pressure stroke finishes just before cam over so the max torque is in effect and the shell holder strikes the die firmly. (That part in bold is what means full length sizing.)
OK, if you don't want to full length size you can use your feeler gauges to leave .007, or so, gap between the shell holder and die at full up and try some. If you need to bump the shoulder a bit more, cut the gap down till you get what is needed. When doing this the press will cam over. It is that cam over point now that determines just how far the casing will go into the die. ( reason 2. above.)
Last edited:
USSR
Member
There ya go!
Don
James2
Member
I got to wondering about shell holders. Just how far is it from the bottom where the brass sits to the top which kisses the die? If there was variation in shell holders from company to company the difference could affect your full length sizing depending on the shell holder.
Out of curiosity, I measured all of my shell holders. I have some from several companies. Some are old and some are recent purchases. Surprisingly they were all within .002 inch. Looks like there is an industry standard in effect on this.
I looking at my 270 win sizing die, the bottom inside is tapered to a depth of about .040 before sizing would begin. The shell holders were .125 deep. So there will be about .165 of the base of the casing that does not get sized. (It was hard to get an accurate measurement on the taper of the base of the die. But .040 is in the neighborhood. Point is: some of the base does not get sized. )
Out of curiosity, I measured all of my shell holders. I have some from several companies. Some are old and some are recent purchases. Surprisingly they were all within .002 inch. Looks like there is an industry standard in effect on this.
I looking at my 270 win sizing die, the bottom inside is tapered to a depth of about .040 before sizing would begin. The shell holders were .125 deep. So there will be about .165 of the base of the casing that does not get sized. (It was hard to get an accurate measurement on the taper of the base of the die. But .040 is in the neighborhood. Point is: some of the base does not get sized. )
243winxb
Member
Hornady Lock N Load AP press.
1. The screw in the center of the shell plate must be as tight as possible, but stlll let the plate turn. 2. The deck height at each station should be about .125". 3. The sub plate may be flexing on sizing and/or the die bushings may have slop. Order Shims from Hornady. Deck Height >
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[/URL][/IMG] Spray lubes may not work. Try some RCBS lube & pad.
1. The screw in the center of the shell plate must be as tight as possible, but stlll let the plate turn. 2. The deck height at each station should be about .125". 3. The sub plate may be flexing on sizing and/or the die bushings may have slop. Order Shims from Hornady. Deck Height >
Today, 03:17 PM #30
James2
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 648
The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.
I have 3 RCBS Rock Chucker presses, not one of them cam over, they all jam-up, cram-up or lock up, all three go into a bind and get tangled up with the toggle on the bottom. All three have a maximum travel to the top, I can modify my Rock Chuckers to cam over.
Again, there was a video on YouTube, the video was taken from the top without a die installed. All the comments were blaming CHINA stuff etc.. The video demonstrated the ram at the top of its travel kicking forward, some viewers got dizzy, some passed out, none of them contacted me, worst, they did not ask, they all did the usual, they assumed. The ram kicking forward is/was caused by the linkage getting tangled up at the bottom, the tangle caused the ram to kick in one direction on the bottom and the opposite at the top.
With a die installed and a case in the shell holder the ram is not allowed to kick, I have 2 progressive presses that use the Rock Chucker, both are Piggy Back 11, one set up for small primers, the other for large primers.
Then there are cam-over presses, I have at least 6 cam over presses. All my cam over presses go past top dead center, meaning adjusting the die to the shell holder when cammed over will require the ram to go up first before it can be lowered. Cam over presses can be adjusted to bump, meaning when the press is in cam over mode the shell holder is not contacting the shell holder. All my cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again on the way down.
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses, if the die is adjusted to the shell holder when cammed over the handle stays up, I have instructions for adjusting cam over presses dated 1959 and 1961.
Another cam over press is the RCBS A2.
F. Guffey
James2
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 648
The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.
I have 3 RCBS Rock Chucker presses, not one of them cam over, they all jam-up, cram-up or lock up, all three go into a bind and get tangled up with the toggle on the bottom. All three have a maximum travel to the top, I can modify my Rock Chuckers to cam over.
Again, there was a video on YouTube, the video was taken from the top without a die installed. All the comments were blaming CHINA stuff etc.. The video demonstrated the ram at the top of its travel kicking forward, some viewers got dizzy, some passed out, none of them contacted me, worst, they did not ask, they all did the usual, they assumed. The ram kicking forward is/was caused by the linkage getting tangled up at the bottom, the tangle caused the ram to kick in one direction on the bottom and the opposite at the top.
With a die installed and a case in the shell holder the ram is not allowed to kick, I have 2 progressive presses that use the Rock Chucker, both are Piggy Back 11, one set up for small primers, the other for large primers.
Then there are cam-over presses, I have at least 6 cam over presses. All my cam over presses go past top dead center, meaning adjusting the die to the shell holder when cammed over will require the ram to go up first before it can be lowered. Cam over presses can be adjusted to bump, meaning when the press is in cam over mode the shell holder is not contacting the shell holder. All my cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again on the way down.
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses, if the die is adjusted to the shell holder when cammed over the handle stays up, I have instructions for adjusting cam over presses dated 1959 and 1961.
Another cam over press is the RCBS A2.
F. Guffey
Then there are Competition shell holder holders, 5 to the set for $45.00, I purchased a #6 set at a gun show in Mesquite TX, for $5.00, three of the 5 were off .001” each, not a problem, The Redding shell holders are designed to prevent reducing the case length from the shoulder the case to the head of the case. Then there is reducing the length of the case from from the shoulder to the head of the case for short chambers.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
James2
Member
This was certainly true on the early Herter presses. Later models had a spring loaded ball in the frame and a divot in the ram to hold the handle up.
Today, 06:51 PM #37
James2
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 650 Quote:
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses,
This was certainly true on the early Herter presses. Later models had a spring loaded ball in the frame and a divot in the ram to hold the handle up.
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James
James2, I have one with ‘the detent’, adding the detent was always an option.
F. Guffey
James2
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 650 Quote:
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses,
This was certainly true on the early Herter presses. Later models had a spring loaded ball in the frame and a divot in the ram to hold the handle up.
__________________
James
James2, I have one with ‘the detent’, adding the detent was always an option.
F. Guffey
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