Cap and Ball Revolvers for Self Defense

[ReadyontheRight]

gvass -- great point that it's not a joke.

I bet if you told any American back in 1960 that the mere act of a private citizen selling their gun to another private citizen would be called a "loophole" in a gun law, and that politicians were using this as part of their poilitical campaign, they would have thought you were joking.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Watch the French and their cap 'n balls. A couple of years ago a French American Civil War (or more properly the War of the Rebellion as it was known in North in those days) reenactors borrowed a gun and shot it at the other side (the Yanks). He plugged a Yankee reenactor in the neck.

Writer/historian Joe Bilby cautions that reenactors and shooters should have two guns. One to reenact with and the other to shoot. Neither should ever be used for both as there could be accidents. Sound advice from that (respectable) old fart.

 

[Battlespace]

A couple of years ago a member, in fact I believe he was the ex-president, of the Kentucky Blackpowder Shooting Assoc was joggin gin the early morning hours of a park in Lexington. A car pulled up and a BG jumped out to attempt an early morning mugging. The wrong guy to pick on at that time of day, although he was only armed with a .25 auto. Shot the BG in the gut. Too bad he was not carrying a .44 at the time. The BG lived with a very sore gut.

 

[LynnKCircle]

Black Powder for Self Defense

There's only one reason I wouldn't use my Ruger Old Army as a house gun for self-defense -- the trigger.

Not that the trigger is bad -- it is excellent. In fact the trigger is so good that I am more accurate with the Ruger Old Army at 25 yards than with any other handgun I own.

Stopping power on the .457 ball is pretty good, too. A few years ago one of the gun magazines did an estimate of ball stopping power and figured the Colt SA Army .45 probably had as good stopping power as a modern .357 because that slow-moving big ball dumps all of its energy on target.

But think of this: gun accidents -- REAL accidents, not the kind had by parents getting high who let their kids play with their guns -- are at the lowest in history. Part of the reason is the DA trigger.

That Ruger has such a good trigger that if I had a hard sneeze holding it cocked, I'm pretty sure it would go off. If facing a bad guy, it wouldn't take too much tension and stress to pull the trigger without meaning to. And if the "bad guy" turned out to be my teenager sneaking in after staying out too late .... well, you get the picture.

 

[Dr.Rob]

My Signature series 1851 Colt DOES have the little stop pins, as does my Pietta 1860 Army 'Outlaw.'

Those stop pins make a big difference in feeling safe carrying them loaded.

My point was the 36/44 debate is about as pointless as the 9mm/45 debate, not comparing them directly in power.

And by my measure... a Factory Colt Flask throws the nearly the same charge for a Navy and an Army.. and it's not 40 grains. I think its like.. 22 for the Navy and 24-25 for the Army.

But you are making me want to test this theory on my powder scale.

I forget what the .36 conical bullets weigh, (I want to say 90-100gr) but my 44 uses 180gr Buffalo Conicals or roundball.

 

[TerryBob]

And by my measure... a Factory Colt Flask throws the nearly the same charge for a Navy and an Army.. and it's not 40 grains. I think its like.. 22 for the Navy and 24-25 for the Army

The spouts for you flask screws in and out and is interchangeable. 25 years ago, my Colt flask held about 45 grs. The 1858 Remington and 1860 Colt will hold at least 40 grs. but probably shoots best at around 30 grs. I have a lot of personal experience on this as well as I have read this in a number of sources.

Use your adjustable measure to find out what your gun likes. Then spend a couple of bucks for a spout that holds that amount.

Take care,

TerryBob

 

[gvass]

"But think of this: gun accidents -- REAL accidents, not the kind had by parents getting high who let their kids play with their guns -- are at the lowest in history. Part of the reason is the DA trigger."

Pietta manufactures a nicely made copy of the Starr DA (Double Action) .44 revolver. Although it is not as elegant as a Colt M1860, but very practical for such high-stress defensive situation.

 

[foghornl]

I carried an Army Remington repro many years back when working the overnight shift...getting off duty @ 3:00 AM will make you want to do that.

Left work one shift, only to go outside and see guy working under the hood of my car, attempting to [ahem] 'borrow' my battery. Reader's Digest version...he attempted to bring knife to gunfight. The muzzle flame from a full-house BP revolver is quite impressive. And I added a nice knife to my kitchen cutlery selections. (No, I didn't shoot the miscreant, but merely helped him increase the pace of his retreat)

As I recall, Blackpower/Pyrodex/Triple Seven are measured by VOLUME, not weight. I have a couple of the adjustable BP measures, and one that is a marked glass laboratory 'test tube' type of measure. If I can find the text file I have around here somewhere, I have the cautions from Hodgdon's website about measuring Pyrodex, etc. (7-7-7 requires 15% LESS that Pyrodex for the same muzzle velocity)

 

[chaim]

Actually, it's the Remington that has a place between the cylinders for the hammer to rest. A remington .44 and the Colt 1860 holds 40 gr. of powder. The Walker will hold about 70 grs. and was the most powerful handgun that there was untill the .44 mag came out (or so I have read).

40GR?! Bad idea. The max charge for these guns is 25gr as had already been said. The guy you were "correcting" wasn't saying how much the chamber can hold, just the maximum safe charge. I have 2 .44cal blackpowder pistols, both from different companies, and both give 25gr as the max charge. OK, fine, maybe one can go a little higher and it might be artificially low due to today's lawyer culture, but I highly doubt that they are playing it 15 grains safe.

Please be more careful about your suggestions, people may actually give it a try.

As for the Walker being the most powerful until the .44mag, nope, it was the most powerful handgun until the .357mag came out just as gvass said.

 

[gvass]

"The max charge for these guns is 25gr as had already been said."

The max charge of the modern replica BP-revolvers is ALL, what you can pour under the ball. Nothing less.

These guns are impossible to explode when loaded with blackpowder (or correct substituent).

 

[TerryBob]

an 1860 Army holds a 20 gr charge, the Walker held something like 50 grains of powder!

holds

The guy you were "correcting" wasn't saying how much the chamber can hold, just the maximum safe charge.

With all due respect, look again. The person clearly used the words HOLDS. He was not talking about MAX CHARGE. I understand the differance.

On the other hand, I agree with gvass. My Remington knock off has been shooting 30grs fff goex for 26 years with no problem. I have read in many sources that the standard charge use in the Cival War was 30 grs and the metal wasn't nearly as good back then. I know people who consistantly shoot 40 grs. with no problem. I always recommend 30 grs. for steel frames and 25 grs. for brass frames.

 

[LynnKCircle]

I cannot speak about replicas, but I do know the Ruger Old Army can safely be loaded with a max of 40 grains. However, Ruger recommends beginning with 20 and working your way up to find the best accuracy. My flask throws 30 grains and it turns out I get great accuracy with that, so I'm staying with it.

 

[TerryBob]

My flask throws 30 grains and it turns out I get great accuracy with that, so I'm staying with it.

When I first got my Remington, I compared loads anywhere from 20gr. to 40gr. I found that 30 worked best. Anything over that seemed to throw off the accuracy pretty bad. The powder is still burning after the ball leaves the barrel and we all know what that does for accuracy.

I have an 1862 Navy in .44 (not historical, I know) with a brass frame that was a gift that I am going to shoot for the first time in the near future. I am hoping that it will shoot well with no more than 25gr because the brass frame will stretch out quickly with anything more.

Take care all,

TerryBob

 

[chaim]

With all due respect, look again. The person clearly used the words HOLDS. He was not talking about MAX CHARGE. I understand the differance.

Fair enough, you weren't talking about max safe charge but capacity. However, I'd still put that out with big time disclaimers. Someone might take you up on it and try it.

I'll be the first to admit that the 25gr charge that you see listed as max charge for all of the Remington and Colt clones is probably a "lawyer charge" and the true safe maximum might be as much as 10-20% greater. Still, I'd be careful about suggesting people do that- it should be limited to experienced (and responsible) people who have some idea what to expect.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I've read an expert source who said that modern repro cap and ball guns cannot be overcharged with black powder to the point of damaging them or exploding. I've been assuming this was the case for many years now. Anyone ever hear of one exploding with a black powder charge?

 

[Dr.Rob]

I've never loaded pyrodex in my pistols I use fffg only.

Pictured are a .36 Colt Signature Series Navy w/original Colt Flask , a Euroarms 44 cal Rogers & Spencer w/ repro flask, and a Calbelas 1860 Army "outlaw" by Pietta w/ repro 44 cal Colt Flask.

You can see clearly that the 44 cal tubes are longer.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Doh!

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

I have used 40 grains of fffg in my Ruger Old Army. Chronographs at 1000 fps, but I'm still trying to get lead out of the barrel.

 

[TerryBob]

Dr.Rob,

How do you like that Rogers and Spencer? I must get one because my last name is Rogers and my mother's maiden name is Spencer. It's an omen...I must buy it.

TerryBob

 

[Dr.Rob]

Terry, that one belongs to my dad, he bought it the same day I bought the 1860 Outlaw.

The pistol is robust, it weighs a lot. The plow-handle grip takes some getting used to, but its comfortable. The BIG bead front sight is handy, and it points well. the cylinder has some machining marks i dodn't care for but it's a really neat piece of curiousa. I'd recommend one in a heartbeat, that are wicked fun, just not as 'elegant' as a Colt.

 

[scotjute]

As for longevity of your charge, I've had pistol loaded for up to 3 weeks and all went off ok. I have carried Uberti '61 Navy in a flap holster for 2 days of walking in woods in constant drizzle in Louisiana. All the charges fired off first time. Used # 10 caps, wonder wads, and grease over the balls.

This Uberti also has the pins in between cylinders so you can load for 6 shots. Don't think that's authentic, but I like it.
Don't normally consider it for self-protection, but sometimes its all I have available. It is accurate and fairly reliable.

Many of the men who used cap and ball revolvers years ago often carried two or more because of the hassle of reloading. The .36 caliber pocket revolvers (5-shot) are fairly small and might make a good choice for a back-up if someone is using cap'n ball for protection.

 

[Stickjockey]

Actually, it's the Remington that has a place between the cylinders for the hammer to rest.

Actually, they both do. Colts have the little (and I do mean little)pins, and Remingtons have slots cut between the nipple holes that fit the nose of the hammer.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

You have to wonder why Colt didn't put those notches on their Single Action Army .45s. Would have made them all six shooters instead of five shooters. How hard would it be to put them on a Single Action Army revolver?

 

[MrAcheson]

You have to wonder why Colt didn't put those notches on their Single Action Army .45s. Would have made them all six shooters instead of five shooters. How hard would it be to put them on a Single Action Army revolver?

Technically you can rest the firing pin in between the cartridge rims on a SAA. But it doesn't work very well, much like the notches on C&B guns.

 

[4v50 Gary]

check out this link.

Fess up! Who here did this?Self defense with black powder revolver news clipping