Cap & Ball Revolvers, and, California

[Oyeboten]

Refresh my memory please?

Can an adult living in California, who is in full posession of his Civil Rights, order or receive a Cap & Ball Black Powder Revolver through the Mail, and, have it delivered to them, own, shoot and enjoy it, without any mediating FFLs, fees, licences, Lists, or other tedious legal micromanaging mandates or issues?

 

[Cutter]

Yepp! I bought mine from cabela's and received it in the mail two weeks later.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thanks Cutter..!


Glad to hear this...

 

[Cutter]

Yea, now you just need some lead and bullet molds. Get a cast iron pot and a heating element and you'll be on your way! Now that you know you don't have that legal bs to deal with, you just have to choose which gun you want!!! Lol, how much are you willing to spend?

 

[Zoogster]

I did find some strange portion of California law though that had some in the black powder forum quite angry.

It would appear to be a felony to have more than a pound of black powder at one time without any license or permit to allow more.

A pound of black powder is nothing as you go through it quite readily with the much larger black powder charges as compared to smokeless charges.
It also limits the ability to make your own.


As a result it is rather impractical to enjoy black powder shooting using real black powder without any additional permit or license. Many do it, but I would venture most are committing felonies. You could probably get away with breaking the law forever, but it is still a felony.
However it does appear that black powder substitutes fall under the smokeless powder limit, which is 20 pounds under the law.
You can have up to 20 pounds of all smokeless powders combined. But only 1 pound of black powders combined without a license to legally store more.

You can buy much more at a time, because the law does not say someone cannot sell more than 1 pound, it simply says they must have a permit to possess more than 1 pound. The law does not prevent someone from breaking the law, it simply is the law.
As a result many appear to be content pretending the law does not exist.

Some of the posts in this thread I will link remind me a lot of a child that sticks his fingers in his ears and says they can't hear you because you have brought attention to a reality or consequences they wish did not exist. It is reality though, and the law does exist. Some even resorted to unprovoked childish name calling because it shook their desired reality so much, but I cited the relevant code:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=378623&highlight=black+powder+felony

 

[Oyeboten]

How insane...


I wonder if however many pounds of Powder one has, could be divided among however many people (would have to be adults I imagine ) share the home?

Or if friends and relatives could all be care-takers of a Pound each..?

 

[Zoogster]

I wonder if however many pounds of Powder one has, could be divided among however many people (would have to be adults I imagine ) share the home?

I do not know. I know "one" can still just have a single pound that technically is theirs but there may be several 1 pound amounts allowed in a household.
So if you have 5 family members you could not suddenly have 5 pounds yourself, but perhaps you could have 5 pounds in the house.

I also don't know how it applies to married couples considering property acquired by one is mutually owned by both. Could a couple have 2 pounds or 1 pound?

Or if friends and relatives could all be care-takers of a Pound each..?

That is easier, and I covered that in the linked thread. The answer is no. Because you could not legally give them the powder to store it, and they could not legally give you the powder when you were ready for it:

(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.

As cited by statute it only applies to black powder. You are free to gift or deliver smokeless to friends or family. But black powder must remain with the original private owner.
You could not even legally share a batch of your perfected recipe with friends or family if you made some.

 

[.378 Wby]

OK, but a note of caution here --

A cap & ball or any other "antique" firearm is still considered a firearm. You can't carry it concealed; it's subject to the same "possession" laws (carry, transport) as a modern firearm.

Also, and this is not "legal" -- casting lead bullets, or fishing weights can get toxic. Use good ventilation (outside), and wash your hands thoroughly, change your clothes. No eating/drinking.

 

[Oyeboten]

Good reminder .378 Wby...quite so...


My interest in the California question, ( I am in Nevada ) is that I was thinking of making a present to a friend who lives in California of a nice used Cap & Ball reproduction Revolver...and, if I were to do it, I wanted to make sure it would not make for a bunch of hassles or expenses for him ( or me ).

 

[Bluehawk]

Oyeboten
Unless there is some city or county restriction, it is legal to receive a BP rifle, pistol, or revolver in the state of California w/o the dealings of a licensed firearms dealer. In fact, some FFL dealers won't even bother doing private transfers with BP guns because it's a waste of time...mine wouldn't do them. I received my Remington Police Model from Cabelas by UPS less than 7 weeks ago. If it were illegal, they certainly wouldn't be shipping them!
Concerning black powder in CA...have never heard or read that it's a felony to have more than 1 pound in your possession...my fire dept did ask me once if I had more than 5 pounds stored in the house, that seemed to be the city ordinance limit. If more than 1 pound was a felony I'm sure the Fire Chief would have informed me of such at the time.
(On a historical note, this was in the same city Virgil Earp became the Marshall of, when his wounds and arm healed after the OK Corral and later ambushed, and he brought Morgans body to for burial)

 

[Oyeboten]

Very good...thanks Bluehawk.



I used to live in the Bay Area - 1964 to 1978...it was nicest the farther back one goes in time, to be sure..!

 

[Bluehawk]

Oyeboten
A phone call to the Firearms Division of the CA Dept of Justice yesterday confirmed what I wrote to you. Their words were..."we do not regulate black powder weapons in the state of California. As far as the State is concerned they are not considered firearms."
The funny thing is, you can buy all the BP guns ya want but ya can't buy a blowgun...they are prohibited!!!!
In the matter of the possession of amounts of black powder and permits, they are quite confused as to the Health and Safety Code as it pertains to private individuals. The Firearms Div. didn't even know such a law existed and it is NOT a felony...the only mention in it for a penalty is if someone gives false identity information to obtain black powder and it is a misdemeanor!
I was transferred to the lady that oversees explosives permits but she was away from her desk and I left a contact number for her to call me back.

 

[Zoogster]

The Firearms Div. didn't even know such a law existed

Of course not, black powder firearms are not a subject they deal with often because they are not considered firearms for many of California's laws regarding firearms. So the propellant they use is going to likewise be something they rarely have experience dealing with.
Well now you reminded them, maybe it will get enforced even more often now, cataloged into their quick reference rulebooks regarding firearms, and mentioned on websites and booklets they maintain. Which will further educate LEO and lead to more enforcement and charges relating to the violations.

and it is NOT a felony...the only mention in it for a penalty is if someone gives false identity information to obtain black powder and it is a misdemeanor!

No that is Health and Safety Code 12102.1 specifically, and relates only to under 1 pound of black powder!

12102.1. Any person who sells, gives, delivers or otherwise
disposes of 20 pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or
less of black sporting powder, shall first obtain a statement from
the person who purchases or otherwise receives such powder, which
statement shall include:
(a) The name, address and birth date of the person purchasing or
receiving the powder.
(b) The purpose for which the powder is intended to be used,
handled, stored, or possessed.
(c) The type and amount of the powder.
(d) The signature of the person purchasing or receiving the
powder.
(e) The driver's license number, selective service card number, or
other identifying information concerning the person purchasing or
receiving the powder.
Any person furnishing a fictitious name or address or knowingly
furnishing an incorrect birth date and any person violating any of
the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

So if someone lies regarding purchase, or transfer of 1 pound or less it is a misdemeanor, that has nothing to do with possession of more than 1 pound.


Maybe this format will help you understand, as it appears in the text:

http://law.justia.com/california/codes/hsc.html

You are citing CHAPTER 4, the "permits" requirements, which just happens to mentioned a misdemeanor for a single section specifically. But most of the penalties for the majority of DIVISION 11 are in CHAPTER 9:

PART 1. HIGH EXPLOSIVES
CHAPTER 1. DEFINITIONS AND SCOPE ............................ 12000-12007
CHAPTER 2. ENFORCEMENT ........................................... 12020
CHAPTER 3. GENERAL .......................................... 12080-12092
CHAPTER 4. PERMITS .......................................... 12101-12112
CHAPTER 5. SALE OR OTHER DISPOSITION ........................ 12120-12124
CHAPTER 6. STORAGE .......................................... 12150-12151
CHAPTER 7. ILLEGAL USE OR POSSESSION ........................ 12303-12305
CHAPTER 8. CONFISCATION ..................................... 12350-12355
CHAPTER 9. PENALTIES ........................................ 12400-12401

Lets go to the penalties section shall we?

12400. Except as provided in Chapter 7 (commencing with Section
12302), Part 1, Division 11 of the Health and Safety Code, every
person who violates any provision of this part, or violates any
regulation adopted by the State Fire Marshal pursuant to this part,
is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not more than one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment for not more than six
months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.



12401. Every person who is found guilty of a felony as specified in
this part is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a
county jail not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding ten
thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

So lets go see what those punishments are referring to since it seems unclear what is a misdemeanor and a felony?

For that we go to CHAPTER 7. ILLEGAL USE OR POSSESSION

12303. "Lawful possession of an explosive," as used in this
chapter, means possessing explosives in accordance with the stated
purpose and conditions of a valid permit obtained pursuant to the
provisions of this part, unless such person is specifically excepted
from the permit requirements by the provisions of this part.




12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
felony.

And just in case some think black powder is not an explosive because the federal laws define it a certain way, here is California law which clearly considers it an explosive:

12000. For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat.

So what does all this mean? It means if you are not exempted by having less than 1 pound of black powder you can be charged under part 1 as a misdemeanor, but since you are not exempted by being in legal possession of less than 1 pound for the legal exempted use you can also be charged under chapter 7 for ILLEGAL USE OR POSSESSION.
It is illegal possession if you A. do not have a permit, or B. are not operating within an exempted context which requires under 1 pound.

12303. "Lawful possession of an explosive," as used in this
chapter, means possessing explosives in accordance with the stated
purpose and conditions of a valid permit obtained pursuant to the
provisions of this part, unless such person is specifically excepted
from the permit requirements by the provisions of this part.

What is the penalty for this illegal possession if not "excepted from the permit requirements" under chapter 7?

12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
felony.

The final penalty chapter I cited earlier concurs with this:

12400. Except as provided in Chapter 7....

12401. Every person who is found guilty of a felony as specified in
this part is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a
county jail not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding ten
thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

So they can charge with a felony if they wish for illegal possession of black powder outside of an excepted/exempted limit, or if used for a purpose other than an exempted purpose (like for firearms or another area that deal with fireworks.)
You are only exempt to the permit requirements and therefor in legal possession if you possess in accordance with the exception, which is 1 pound or less for shooting purposes without an additional permit.
If you are not exempt through that exception then you are in illegal possession of an explosive as defined by CA law, refer to chapter 7 for felony charge.