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California gov't seizes 500 legal ARs

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Creeping Incrementalism, Feb 11, 2006.

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  1. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    Because of a possible loophole opening up in California allowing new AR's and AK's to be registered as assault weapons, there's been a buying spree going on in California these past two months. However, the state Department of Justice (DOJ) just seized 500+ stripped lowers from a Bay Area FFL.

    A group buy advertised on CalGuns.net had forum members doing the paperwork & pickup at an FFL in the city of Milpitas (SF Bay Area). CA law mandates a ten day wait before pickup. The FFL doesn't normally do this volume of business, and so ran out of safe space. The Department of Justice visited, noticed this, and seized 500+ stripped lowers. The FFL immediately went out and bought an enormous safe and the DOJ was notified of such, but it's been two weeks and they haven't returned them, even though it should have been within a day or two. Someone called the DOJ and got the answer from the clerks that the stripped lowers are now contraband and won't be returned, because of how the group buy was conducted--I'm not sure exactly what their technical legal ground their reasoning rests on, but it sounds like crap to me, based on my previous experiences buying and selling guns in this state. It seems as if the "small safe" reasoning was just an excuse to grab them. These lowers are very specifically legal in California, and pickups of the same model that were shipped to the FFL after the DOJ seizure have continued, as have sales throughout the state. The person who organized the group buy has retained a lawyer, but hasn't gotten far with getting them returned yet (it's been two weeks). Meanwhile, the owners of the lowers will have to keep doing the paperwork and paying a 25 dollar fee every 30 days, or they risk losing their lowers.

    So what we have here is the DOJ seizing five hundred legal receivers on a technicality, and refusing to return them once the technicality has been fixed. For those of you who say the gov't hasn't taken your guns, well, they have just taken 500+ in one fell swoop in California. Of course, they may just be looking for another technicality, or making up the law as they go along, which the Firearms Division of the DOJ is known to do. One of these lowers is mine, and I believe the person who organized the group buy has two that were seized. He’s determined to get them all back, but I don’t know if it will happen.

    Please don't dismiss this as just a California thing--we are your fellow Americans, and the “as goes California, so goes the nation” saying hasn’t been repeated for no reason.

    More info is located at:
    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28447
    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=81

    Here’s some basic background information on CA gun laws: The assault weapons law bans guns by feature, and a detachable mag is a required feature. There are also guns banned by model. The DOJ can add AR/AK receiver names at will, and then owners have a few months to register them as assault weapons. So fixed-mag AR’s are legal unless the DOJ bans that model, at which point residents have some time to register them as assault weapons, and assault weapons can have politically incorrect features. The DOJ announced such an addition to the ban list (for the first time), and so CA gun owners went on a buying spree. However, the DOJ just published a memo stating that they would not allow politically incorrect features to be added, which is not what the law states, but that’s another battle…
     
  2. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    We need to educate our fellow non-shooting Californians and change the views here. That's the only long-term thing I can think of. This is horrible. We need to get as many ARs into the state as possible before our representatives change the laws.
     
  3. Nightfall

    Nightfall Member

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    So will the DOJ destroy them?
     
  4. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    Nightfall: This is just getting going and I think the DOJ is rational enough to hold on to them until the issue is decided.

    ElTacoGrande: It would take a bit of a sea change to get Californians to alter their views, but long term, yeah, that's the only way.
     
  5. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    Molon Labed?

    Cold Dead Fingers?

    It's California--those folks will travel half way across the country to steal firearms from the peasants.
     
  6. The-Fly

    The-Fly Member

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    outrageous, but not surprising. I think a huge lawsuit against the state of CA for violations of the 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendment is in order here.

    I wonder how much longer its going to be until something along the lines of Molon Labe or Unintended Consequences really comes to life.
     
  7. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    Well these were taken from the stock of an FFL. It's not like breaking into someone's home and taking away his personal firearms. Also these are not "firearms" except in the legal sense. They're just stripped lowers, a part that few people would even recognize as being a gun part.

    I hope I will be pleasantly surprised that the NRA goes in with (legal) guns blazing and hammers the CA DoJ. It would be great to get a multi-million dollar settlement from this (if it's possible). I would love to see CA's precious state budget being blown on a) this stupid enforcement action and b) defending the stupidity in court and c) losing.

    CA has so many real problems to spend money on, and there are so many real crimes that don't get solved. Something like half the murders in SF don't get solved. And yet, the DoJ has time and money for this nonsense.
     
  8. Doctor Suarez

    Doctor Suarez Member

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    At the one NRA meeting I ever attended, we had Joel Rosenberg as a guest speaker. He's a southland businessman who was elected to the NRA's board of directors.

    He kept reminding us that California is just one state out of 50.

    Like a fool, I totally failed to offer the following rebuttal.

    Yes, California is one state out of 50, but in terms of the American population, it's one out of 8, maybe one out of 10. Also, these 10% of Americans are in a crisis zone. We can't possibly need just as much attention as Vermont and Montana. They're totally gun friendly. California is a gun owner's nightmare, and the NRA should know that, as was the case with AWBs, our bad gun control ideas flow outward. Bullet serialization hasn't passed here, but that won't stop it. Already Boston's mayor is talking about it too.

    As for the AR thing... well, I'll just step over it and get an M1A.
     
  9. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    Yeah, exactly, we're "just one state" but a) we have the most reps in Congress of any state and b) we lead the nation, and the world, in terms of our laws, styles, viewpoints, etc. That's a fact. The most obvious example was our clean air laws, which started out of necessity in LA, and have spread (literally) all around the world. The US media industry is headquartered here and sets opinions around the world.

    For the NRA to say "CA is just one out of 50" is just a sad excuse for not doing anything. It's easy for them to say "look what a great job we're doing in Vermont". Why don't they come out here where we really need them?

    I'm sick of the NRA doing nothing in this state. I'm sick of hearing people tell me "just move".

    The NRA needs to be here, winning hearts and minds by changing perceptions of gun owners and guns.

    Look at the recent idiocy in SF. Yes the NRA is going to win that court case, but how did it happen that 70% of voters in SF wanted to ban handguns? What is the NRA doing about that problem? Ultimately whoever has the perception is going to win, no matter what happens in court.

    Yeah me too. Fulton Armory M1A. The final word in home defense. Any cartridge more effective than 308 has too much recoil to be used quickly. Anything less than 308... is less than it could be.

    Also I'm thinking of the Rem 7600 308 pump rifle. I know that I can pump my 870 about 3 times per second, and I guess the 308 would have about the same recoil as a 12 ga, but would have a lot more shredding power and range.
     
  10. Doctor Suarez

    Doctor Suarez Member

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    Pump? Silly person!

    They don't want me to own a semi-automatic battle rifle, so that's what I'm getting! However, my practice rifle, in .22LR, is a boltie.

    the .308's recoil, out of a semi-auto, does not at all live up to the hype. I fired a full-length M1A, off a bench (which worsens recoil) and found it totally comfortable. You sense it more than you feel it. Not at all in the same league as a shotgun (which I also just bought :D )

    As for the NRA in Cali... I joined them anyway just because they're the 800 lb. gorilla of the gun rights community. They get a lot done, particularly nationally.

    As for Cali, I also joined CRPA and the Gun Owners of CA. CRPA is more of a club than a rights organization, but GO-CA is an attack dog. Give them money.

    After that, we just have to pray for a demographic shift, redistricting, and the lessons of Katrina to keep sinking in. A few weeks after Katrina, I went into Turner's for some ammo, and kept seeing middle-aged gun-ignorant married guys asking about shotguns to "just keep in the closet". My favorite was the guy who asked "can I fire it from the hip?" and (paraphrasing) "I've never heard of this 'Remington 870'. Why are you pushing it on me?"
     
  11. modifiedbrowning

    modifiedbrowning Member

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    ELTacoGrande, come again, over.
     
  12. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    Would this be AG Lockyer again?
     
  13. fourays2

    fourays2 Member

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    actually that tired old meme needs to be retired. if it were the case then surely AZ would be CA-lite. I live in AZ and we see what happens next door and we vehemently reject all the stupidity we see. We adopt the good ideas but don't think that just because your left leaning authoritarian statists pass some stupidity that the rest of us will eventually fall into lock step.
     
  14. pcf

    pcf Member

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    Why is the California DOJ being blamed for the FFL's violation of Federal and presumably state law?

    The CADOJ could be holding the receivers as evidence and pending criminal charges. 500+ counts of violating the federal law is pretty serious (really more like 4 or 5 charges per receiver).

    The FFL had the financial means to purchase or rent a safe to handle the volume of sales, he failed to aquire a safe. Right now, you should stop people from doing business with this guy, he's shown litte respect for his customers property and the potential for the CADOJ or BATF to sieze the rest of his inventory exist.

    Is it possible for the owners of the receivers to have them transfered to another FFL and restart the paperwork?
     
  15. ScottS

    ScottS Member

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    Agree. The only people who believe this are people in KA trying to rationalize what's happening to their state.

    Clearly, it's a tough call, but I'm not sure how much of my NRA dues I want spent on saving what is clearly a lost cause (KA). I'd rather use the war chest to fight on the National level, and on the state level in battles we can win. Pumping NRA money into KA to somehow make the citizens "see the light" and repeal AWB legislation already on the books is pouring money into a black hole, IMO. With limited resources, you have to decide at some point where you get the most BANG for your buck (pun intended).
     
  16. sm

    sm member

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    I am again angered to hear of yet another drop of Tyranny adding to the erosion of the granite foundations of Freedoms.

    This erosion affects us all.

    One drop at a time, does not appear to be much, not "really" going to affect anything at "this" time, one has time to "fix" it...

    Then one day too late. Complacency is an easier softer way than being ever vigilent.

    "It won't affect me".

    Folks living downstream from a dam are more cognizant and seek support and assistance from those upstream, and surrounding areas. They know persons besides themselves will be affected if that dam gives way, if that dam cannot contain flood waters...

    Even maintanence of levees and sandbags are important all over...

    How quickly we forget the lessons of History. Remember New Orleans?

    How everyone all across the country and our friends in Freedom around the world were outraged, expressed concern by that erosion of Freedom to Keep and Bear Arms?

    WE are all in this Preservation of Freedoms, we are supposed to be anyway...

    Steve
     
  17. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    I think Silveira v Lockyer was a worthy cause, futile though it may have been. It seems that you have to have offenses to be able to advance a good case with broad implications. CA appears to be a cornucopia of good gun cases.
     
  18. PinnedAndRecessed

    PinnedAndRecessed member

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    I hate to rain on anybody's parade, but I just moved from Kommiefornia to civilization for just this kind of nonsense. I was there when they outlawed "assault" rifles. I was there when they passed the ridiculous "drop safety" law. I was even there when that Rino gov outlawed the 50 BMG.

    I've known dealers who complied with the letter of the law and got in trouble. Fact is, you can't mess around with the Kal DOJ. They are autonomous.

    You can't mess around with Kal. It is socialist. They don't care about the constitution. They don't care about rights. They only care about Marx.

    That doesn't mean that there aren't patriots there. There are more true patriots there, per capita, than you could imagine.

    It's just that the politics and laws are controlled by traitors and thieves. And it's only getting worse.

    The dealer in Milpetas (and, I might know him) can kiss his guns goodbye. The enemy ain't playing by rules.
     
  19. ScottS

    ScottS Member

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    You may be right about that. Court cases, like the one filed in SF, are one thing, and maybe a good and worthy cause. But here's what I have trouble with.
    Pumping limited funds in a futile effort to "win back the hearts and minds" is pouring money down the drain, IMO. I hate to use the analogy, but people who chose to stay in NOLA during and immediately after Katrina, after clear warnings to get out, should not expect tons of sympathy/$$ for staying in a situation they knew was clearly untenable.
     
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    While it is convenient to blame the NRA here, California has several large state organizations and plenty of gun owners to fund state groups. At the end of the day the problem is that most Californians either want that legislation or don't care enough to fight it. Until that problem is addressed, gun owners will continue to be the red-headed stepchild in California.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2006
  21. AF_INT1N0

    AF_INT1N0 Member

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    Great!!!!!! Just :cuss: great!!

    This communist S%^& Hole is where Uncle Sam is sending me?!!??

    At least if they had sent me to Iraq for a year I could have gone somewhere free afterwords....:( :(

    This is gonna be the end of my career....:banghead: :banghead: I just know it.

    BTW Wasn't it LAPD that was on caught on TV assaulting that old lady for her old revolver??

    Something needs to done about this..

    How does one join the fray in The Peoples Republic of Kalifexico??

    I'm already NRA.

    I'm guessing CALGUNS? or something?
     
  22. ScottS

    ScottS Member

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    Very well said.
     
  23. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    Your facts are so far off in the NOLA case that it affects the rest of your argument.
     
  24. Nitram68

    Nitram68 Member

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    Exactly. When you think it's time to bury your rifles, it is in fact time to dig them up.
     
  25. ScottS

    ScottS Member

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    My facts? What I said was, just like the people who stayed behind by choice in NOLA, and then complained about the lack of rescue efforts, and just like someone who refuses to evacuate after an evacuation order is given, people who stay behind when it is clearly time to leave should not expect "rescuers" to expend great amounts of resources to "save" someone who shouldn't be there in the first place. Sad, but that's life.
     
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