Car keys, guns, and personal responsibility

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griz

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Here are two stories:

1. I was going hunting with a partner and we came upon a truck blocking the trail. We were on leased land, about a half mile from the public road, and this fire trail was the only way in to the area. We knew everybody who could legally hunt there and recognized the truck as belonging to a friend. My hunting buddy thought we could put it in neutral and move it so went to check it out. But he couldn’t get it out of park. I looked inside and picked up the keys from the floor board where the friend had left them in case someone needed to move the truck. My partner said he didn’t think to look there as he always locks his vehicle, even a half mile from the road. Of course I don’t, so I looked.


2. A couple of months ago two kids (too young for drivers licenses) stole a car from a convenience store. They tore down the street for a several blocks and crashed into a house, killing a woman who was just sitting on her couch. To hear the letters to the editor and popular opinion, a lot of folks thought the owner of the car should be charged too. Why? He left his keys in the car. Now at least in this state it is illegal to leave your car with it running, but not with the keys in it. So he wasn’t charged.

What’s that got to do with guns? Just this: One of the views I read about incident #2 compared leaving your keys in your car to leaving a gun out where people could see it and be tempted to steal it. Now I am old enough to remember when it was common to see gun racks in pick up truck windows, and during deer season most of them had shotguns in them. You may not have got much sympathy if your gun was stolen from an unlocked vehicle, but nobody would blame you for entrapment either.

This got me to wondering about societies changing view of personal responsibility over the last generation or two. It seems clear that we are much more focused on safety than we are on people being responsible for their own actions. Any number of silly lawsuits will demonstrate this. But how does it affect gun owners? Are we morally (by today’s moral compass) responsible for stolen guns? What if you are at the range and leave the gun unattended during a bathroom break? I’m intentionally leaving the questions open ended to get a range of thoughts here. How much of the moral burden should be on the gun owner, and how much of the legal burden?
 
I feel the same way if you leave your keys in the car and it gets stolen, or you leave you gun on the bench at the range and it gets stolen. I feel sorry you lost it, but have to say that you should have known better.

If either is then used to harm someone else, it is neither your moral or legal responsibility. I don't feel you not locking something up is the same as inviting someone else to steal it or misuse it.

I do think we have both a legal and moral responsibility to prevent either from being misused by small children. If you leave a small child alone in your running car and they knock it into gear and run into something or someone, then I'd agree it's your fault. Leave a loaded gun on your nightstand where a child finds it, and any resulting harm is also your fault.

Many people look for ways that the guilty person is somehow not responsible for their own actions. Worse, they always seem to have to find someone else to blame.
 
griz said:
I am old enough to remember when it was common to see gun racks in pick up truck windows. . . .
Click to expand...
Come to my town. You won't have to remember it, you'll see it.

But even where I live, more and more people expect government to provide and protect. Every time someone says "why, there ought to be a law . . ." some fancy pants legislator gets another stupid idea (legislation), and some lawyer files a lawsuit, while some judge becomes an activist from the bench (case law). The days of holding the criminal responsible for his behavior seem to be over. Instead, we sue the gun manufacturer and the victim of the burglary where the gun was stolen.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
Welcome to the decline and fall of our Republic. The average person is too busy with their own lives to be too civic minded.
And our public education system doesn't help at all.
 
griz said:
It seems clear that we are much more focused on safety than we are on people being responsible for their own actions. Any number of silly lawsuits will demonstrate this. But how does it affect gun owners?
Click to expand...
I've been thinking a lot about this lately in light of the whole "liquid bombs on airplanes" hysteria. If you know something about chemistry, you know how far-fetched this particular "plot" actually is. Just like 5 years ago, I found it rather absurd when my nail clippers were taken from my carry-on baggage. If I had the skill to bring down an airliner armed only with with nail clippers, surely I could do so with my bare hands!

All of this just cements my old conviction that the people in charge of our country (elected officials), our safety (military, police, TSA), and our civil liberties (BATF, CIA, FBI) are basically dimwits who are primarily concerned with covering their own asses. I'm not talking about the individual members of these organizations, but their leadership.

It drives me ABSOLUTELY INSANE that US citizens are willing to sacrifice fundamental civil rights for a false sense of security. In the last 5 years, we have seen significant compromise of the right to self protection (esp. with respect to nonsensical "gun control" laws), the right to privacy (illegal wiretaps), due process (Homeland Security Act), and freedom of movement and self-determination (tightening immigration laws, absurd TSA policies, etc.). The net result of these "initiatives" is simply an erosion of civil liberties. We're not any "safer." Just less free.

The ultimate absurdity is that the Wahabi radicals who organize these terrorist activites get EXACTLY what they want. They hate America for it's libertarianism. They want America to be a fascist state like their own. Sure enough, we're steadily marching towards their goal. All because Americans are too cowardly to exercise their fundamental civil rights. We smilingly allow agents of the state to trample all over our 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 12th, and 14th Amendment rights...all in the name of "security."

It really makes me sick. The terrorists have already won.
 
Very interesting - of course it seems as though personal responsibility is gone.

The car keys thing made me think of something I saw on TV here is Los Angeles.

Here in LA there is a crime task force that catches car thieves in an interesting way - they do this by "stagging" a scene where a woman is sitting in her car with the engine running then a man pulls up next to her in his car, they argue and the man takes her away in his car - they leave her car in the parking lot, engine off but obviously unlocked (i.e windows down, sometimes door open) they do this in front of a liquor store or convenience store in the inner city where a bunch of juvenles are loitering - in a matter of minutes one of the kids will look in the open window and notice the car keys in the ignition then a few will jump in and drive away. The car has been rigged so the task force can automatically shut of the engine and disable the electronic door locks and windows effectively locking the kids inside. The task force is watching the entire situation and when the kids drive about 100 yards they shut down the car.

After the bust they all crow about taking down another car thief who will be off the streets, in prison and is now a felon. This is upheld in the courts as not entrapment - although the car thieves are all inner city poor and cannot afford a lawyer - if this was done around an expensive collage campus I am sure the charge would be changed.

I'm just wondering does anyone think that "real" car theives are being caught here? They do have to accept the responsibility...and if we had a law making it illegal to leave keys in the car I guess these task force people would have to get a real job.

Stange how things are done in LA LA land.

I wonder how this would be percieved if guns instead of cars were used?
 
There is a slogan at the place where I work and it goes something like this:

My safety is your responsibility!
Click to expand...

I do not like this slogan because it insinuates that the "my" person doesn't have any responsibility to be safe (I know that if everyone is responsible to everyone all should be covered)
However in the world today we, Law abiding citizens, are held responsible for criminals and they(criminals) are not responsible to anyone! Years ago people didn't have to lock their car doors or the doors to their house. A farmer could leave eggs, milk and veggies out by the road with a box for people to put money into to pay for the goods and were confident that they would get all of their money. Back then everyone expected everyone else to be responsible for themselves, the times have change...now I have to be responsible for you and everyone around you...I am even held financialy responsible for people over seas. I am held responsible for illegal people that come into this country, I am held responsible for everyone yet they bear NO responsiblity for themselves. BUT let me not be responsible for one minute...and nobody will be responsible but me. :(
 
Wow, some really great responses here. You have restored my faith in THR.

Of course, there will soon come along a 1-post count idjit who will wail and moan about those "poor, disadvantaged, misunderstood youths" and how we must "understand" them.

I think that most of us "understand" just fine.

Good work, gentlemen. Carry on....
 
We do understand.
I see here (as I usually do when folks that enjoy shooting get together), very like minded people that see the decline we, as a society, have begun.

My fear is that we will all meet someday, out in Wyoming, or someplace, fending off goverment troops (I am only half serious here, but even that is a shame).

My frustration is that it is not the goverment up-surping power, it is the sheeple forcing the goverment to "do something about it."

My sorrow is, I believe it is already lost.
Talk to other people, they believe the goverment is the source of a solution in life, not the problem. Most people have no idea of the principles this country was founded on. No clue as to why so many died for us. They evoke the words of freedom and liberty, but have no clue as to what that really means. They think that means they can drive their car across country without asking permission....yet.

My hope is, history is ripe with examples of things turning around for the strangest reasons. And I do believe that every generation has felt that theirs was the last in free America.

I do not want to believe that we saw an epoch for America after Regan.
 
I am a Strong believer in personal responsibility. If a punk steals my gun or vehicle HE is responsible for HIS actions, NO ONE ELSE........Essex
 
personally...

In the second example where the kids take car, crash and kill. I personally think that is the Parents/CHILDs responsibility.
Where was mom/dad? Can they not raise a child who has a) more sense to steal a car they cant drive b) BE there and not allow their child to steal the car?
I am a parent, and I do understand you cannot be there all the time with your child. On the other hand, dont you raise your child with some type of common sense?
I have a gun in my house, no safe, but out of the reach of my 6 yr old. HE KNOWS its there. We have random discussions about "guns" in general and he has handled it in my presence and we go over gun safety. He ALSO knows, if I am not there, and he handles the gun.....mmmhmmmm, well, he will be in a trouble that he has not seen yet.
I grew up where a shotgun, .22 and other misc rifles sat by the back door. Did I ever pick one up? NO. Why? cuz' my backside would have hurt for a week, and I knew that guns are dangerous.
Tidea being EDUCATION, COMMON SENSE, and RESPONSIBILITY for your childs actions.
 
I'll be unpopular, but...

Let me put it this way... if someone steals my handgun from my house/car/whatever, and robs a store with it... maybe kills the clerk, if I cannot tell myself I secured it reasonably (i.e. I didn't leave it sitting on the front seat with the doors unlocked, rather the car was locked/alarmed and it was hid away), then I probably would feel ashamed.

Personal responsibility goes more than one way.
 
I think this has gotten out of hand in our society. Crimes have gone up as a result of it. Why not commit a crime, b/c you can always blame someone else for it?

Blaming someone for leaving the keys in their unlocked car when it's stolen or blaming the gun owner who leaves it out on the counter with his front door open is wrong. I think the person is naive to think that no one will steal them, but the moral wrong-doing is the THEFT, not the leaving it out, which is well within your rights. Again, it may be a stupid idea to leave your gun sitting on the counter in front of your open front door, but you shouldn't be held liable for doing so. The onus is then on you to learn from your own mistake and not leave your gun out next time. You shouldn't have to be forced to do anything by nanny government. Once you start the blame game, you can assess blame infinitely back to your childhood and say mommy made you do it b/c she didn't hug you enough. It's a bad precident to set.

The former is like blaming a woman for being raped if she's out late at night in a low cut dress walking down back alleys. Sure, it might not be a good idea, but then should the rapist be able to blame her partially for being out at night? I sure as heck don't think so. It's not a crime for her to do so.

This kind of lack of personal responsibility in our society has led to things like people blaming McDonalds for their obesity, etc. I think it's ridiculous and only serves to give the criminals an excuse for committing crimes.
 
Instead of the kid who steals cars, what about a truck driver who left his truck with the keys inside, and a full cargo of jet fuel?

Or, what if I leave a dirty nuclear bomb (with a big green button for detonate :D ) on the back of my pick up truck and park it out near a commonly traveled road for a month?

I bet the wind shifts if not 1 person was killed, but 1000. If not, why is anyone blaming the FBI, NSA, CIA or the airlines for 9/11? Do you blame the police if your car was stolen?
 
Personal responsibility goes more than one way.
Click to expand...

Good point. I think I agree on the reasonable part. But I am curious where the line is drawn. I would think it would either be with one "layer" of locking (car doors locked for instance) or maybe only out of sight but not locked, so the thief would have to go digging to find it. Is one of those acceptable in your view? Something more or less?
 
Very interesting - of course it seems as though personal responsibility is gone.

The car keys thing made me think of something I saw on TV here is Los Angeles.

Here in LA there is a crime task force that catches car thieves in an interesting way - they do this by "stagging" a scene where a woman is sitting in her car with the engine running then a man pulls up next to her in his car, they argue and the man takes her away in his car - they leave her car in the parking lot, engine off but obviously unlocked (i.e windows down, sometimes door open) they do this in front of a liquor store or convenience store in the inner city where a bunch of juveniles are loitering - in a matter of minutes one of the kids will look in the open window and notice the car keys in the ignition then a few will jump in and drive away. The car has been rigged so the task force can automatically shut of the engine and disable the electronic door locks and windows effectively locking the kids inside. The task force is watching the entire situation and when the kids drive about 100 yards they shut down the car.

After the bust they all crow about taking down another car thief who will be off the streets, in prison and is now a felon. This is upheld in the courts as not entrapment - although the car thieves are all inner city poor and cannot afford a lawyer - if this was done around an expensive collage campus I am sure the charge would be changed.

I'm just wondering does anyone think that "real" car thieves are being caught here? They do have to accept the responsibility...and if we had a law making it illegal to leave keys in the car I guess these task force people would have to get a real job.

Strange how things are done in LA LA land.
Click to expand...

I do think real car thieves are being caught. They were standing there not committing a crime, but when presented with an opportunity to commit a crime, they decided "Yes, my own desires are more important than the law/someone else's right". I walk past cars every day. I haven't stolen one yet. Because I'm not a criminal and I'm not a car-thief. Those kids are. If the police didn't provide them with one opportunity to break the law for their own gain, they would have found another opportunity somewhere else, and taken it. This is just like the junk argument that guns cause crime. We all have guns and I'm pretty sure most of us haven't commuted crimes. The unlocked car didn't make those kids take it. They did it because somewhere in their criminal mind, they don't care about the law or anyone else's rights.

Just like how criminals will always find weapons, so banning weapons does us no good, criminals will also always find opportunity. If they can't find one in one place, they will look somewhere else. In the end, it's their decision and their fault for breaking the law, not the fault of the situation.
 
Funny; just today my wife and I were driving through a town where she lived as a student circa 1971. "On Monady and Thursday nights during snowy weather , the town would close that street from 5-10pm and pile snow up down at the end to stop us at the river. We'd sled ride from the top of the hill! (nearly 0.5 mi.). Those were the days; wonder why they don't do that anymore?" Liability. Every kid that scraped a nuckle or nose would go to the ER and expect the city to pay!

Same mindset, somebody else's fault!

Bob
 
My county used to fund fireworks displays in the summer and build public ice rinks and sledding hills in the winter. They don't do any of that any more because of the liability.
 
Good point. I think I agree on the reasonable part. But I am curious where the line is drawn. I would think it would either be with one "layer" of locking (car doors locked for instance) or maybe only out of sight but not locked, so the thief would have to go digging to find it. Is one of those acceptable in your view? Something more or less?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, "reasonable" is often hard to define, and the "reasonable person" classification is tested every day in civil courts.

For me, I keep my things out of sight and the doors locked. Then again, I live in a big city, and sooner or later, your car is going to be broken into. You can put an alarm on it... no one pays attention to it. Kill switches work pretty well, but that doesn't protect the stuff in your car. Lojack gets your car back... but anything unattached is gone.

I don't leave anything in the car overnight, and I try to carry with me indoors if where I'm going allows for it. If not, stash in an unlikely spot in the car. Glove boxes and center consoles are the first place someone looks, so I don't like putting things there. I figure they'll find my CDs, maybe the radar detector, and be happy with that. If they do take apart the car, they'll find the gun, but I don't know of many people who take that kind of time in a busy parking lot near a busy street.

I'm not even talking about installing some false seat backs in the seat, false consoles, or installing ejector seats or anything like that. I'm not Batman, and the crooks aren't The Joker. Just nothing that screams "HEY, THERE'S A GUN IN HERE."

And, understand, I'm not talking about protecting myself from the law or from a lawsuit. To heck with that. I just don't want someone's dirty hands on my guns giving my guns "thief cooties."
 
Are we morally (by today’s moral compass) responsible for stolen guns?

If it's in a locked safe, behind your locked house doors, and it's still stolen, how much responsibility do you have then? Report the crime? Allow the police to investigate? Hire a private detective? Post pictures of the firearm and the serial number on the street?

How much of the moral burden should be on the gun owner, and how much of the legal burden?

Same example as above, except when the thief is found he says he stole the spare key from your wife's purse at work, and she never noticed. Are you still legally responsible? Or you accidentally left your house unlocked, or your key fell out of your pocket, etc. How is your level of fault determined when it comes to personal responsibility?

I've long thought that we've been so focused on making the world safe "for the children" that we've been doing harm that we didn't intend.

jm
 
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