carbine advice

[RiverwinoIA]

Im looking to move up from my .22lr plinker to something more powerful. I have practiced quite a bit using my ruger 10/22. Not a deadeye, but have gotten "handy" with it.

heres some parameters
-I'm 5'9" 150lbs, average reach for my height
-in college, limited funds (500ish price range, maybe exception if AR is best)
-looking for a 16" bbl semiauto carbine, most likely in 5.56 or 7.62x39.
-main purpose will be plinking, shooting reactive targets, possible shtf. but mainly just for fun.
(ps) if shtf, i will be bunkering down. no long distance (200 yard +) needed probably. just a good deterant rifle.


should i look into straight stocked rifles like mini-14/30 or su-16, since im used to shooting my 10/22? or will switching to a pistol grip not really matter?

i like the vepr K rifles. i would assume 7.62x39 would be the best caliber choice for the vepr, since its cheaper, and it will take regular ak mags then.

any advice or answers will be appreciated.

 

[unclestu]

Why not a good SKS? Cheap to buy, cheap ammo(7.62x39), rugged & reliable. You could get a good SKS, lots of ammo, & still have lots of $$ left over from your $500.

 

[444]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=140350

 

[browningguy]

My thoughts:

The SKS as previously mentioned is a fun gun to shoot, cheap ammo, mine shoots about 2.5" groups with a red dot mounted (I use the mount that replaces the rear sight). I have the 59/66 model and they are really cheap in practically new condition.Downsides - a little too heavy for the round it shoots - optics mounting is problematic unless you drill and tap for a side mount or use a red dot on a rear sight mount (the mounts that replace the reciever cover are pretty poor in my experience) - some people consider the 10 round fixed mag a disadvantage, but I'm not one of them.

Love my SU-16A, will probably add a CA model at some time. Mine shows a marked preference for the Black Hills remanufactured ammo with the 52 gr. match hollowpoint, shoots these into about 1.25-1.5". The SU is what a .223 should be, very light weight, uses AR mags, and can be bought for under $500 almost anywhere. Downsides - although mine is not as accurate as a top end AR it also doesn't cost nearly as much - can't really add aftermarket stuff to it (although there is a new short foreend with a built in rail)), some have shown up with very heavy triggers, I consider myself lucky to have gotten one around 6 pounds (it also seemed to get better after the first 100 rounds or so).

Also look at the SUB 2000 (9mm or 40 S&W), I've got one of these with the Glock 17 magwell so it can use the 31 and 33 round magazines, as well as the 17 round flush fit mags. 2.5" groups at 50 yards using the standard sights. Downsides - don't even think about optics unless you are really an expert kludge guy, (but optics aren't really required for it's intended use)- trigger pulls can be very heavy, mine started at about 8 pounds and after the first 200-300 rounds seemed to settle in around 6 1/2 pounds, still too heavy for a paper puncher but it's fun to shoot - It's also not really a 200 yard gun, I guess a real pro could run it better but even at 100 yards I'm getting 6" groups.

I don't own, but have shot the Ruger Mini 14 and 30, classic styling but heavy and haven't seen one yet that will match the KelTec accuracy out of the box. You can find some decent add-ons for them to improve accuracy.

AR15 platform, I've just put together a DPMS lower with the Ace skeleton stock, now trying to decide on an upper. That is the real beauty of the platform, a relatively simple change and you can shoot 22 lr to 50 Beowulf. The down side is that the uppers cost nearly as much as a complete rifle, the cheapest 22 lr upper runs about $325 and the Beowulf runs around $600 here in Houston, .223 uppers run from $425 to the sky is the limit (including bolt carrier assembly and charge handle). Amo and mags are cheap, you can get whatever your heart desires to fit on a basic AR. Downsides-they are going to be heavier than the SU16- lots of gadgets available for them (this can really hurt your wallet if you are not strong willed).

VEPR's, no experience at all with them, I've shot some AK-47 types and most seemed to be 3-4" guns at 100 yards (no optics on the ones I shot). Mags and ammo are cheap and readily available.

The answer please!!!

If you are on a budget I'm really hardpressed to come up with a reason for anything besides the SU16 (get the C or CA model for the better sights). The standard sights are ok up to 100 yards and you can mount any optics you want as funds allow. Reasonable accuracy, reliable, mags are cheap, ammo is plentifull, light weight, folds for storage.

 

[Domino]

You got quite a few options...

Popular .223 around $500

Olympic Plinker
Kel-Tec SU-16
Ruger Mini-14
Armalite AR-180

Popular 7.62X39 less than or equal to $500

Yugo SKS
Romanian WARS
Robinson VEPR (also in .223 and .308)

All of them would probably do what you needed and it would really depend more on what you wanted.

I would personally suggest the M17S which is what I got as a plinking, SHTF rifle and it does impressively well. It is around $600 new and would required optics but, mine is very accurate and has almost no recoil.

If you like the VEPR than you would certainly be making a good choice; I would get one in 7.62X39 and be done with it. Just remember that although many say that they are very accurate rifles, its still an AK so it would be safe to expect AK accuracy. Good luck and let us know what you decide on!

 

[nero45acp]

Consider the AO/Kahr M1 Carbine for around $500. The M1 carbine has little recoil and is very fun to shoot. It can also be an effective manstopper, when loaded with hollowpoints, out to about 100yds. It's rear peephole sight make it very easy to quickly acquire your target. At 50 yards one can rather easily hit a soda can 15 times (one mag) in under 10 seconds. The only drawback of the M1 carbine (given your criteria) is the .30 carbine cartridge is a little more expensive than the .223 or 7.62x39mm cartidges.


nero

 

[Bwana John]

SKS

 

[grimjaw]

You might try one of the Ruger PC9's (~$500 new, less used), if you don't might going with 9mm instead of .223. The ammo is as cheap or cheaper, I believe, and gives you the option of sharing ammo with a handgun. The less expensive Keltec or HighPoint carbines also give you this option, and some AR's do. Since you're already practiced and familiar with the Ruger 10/22, the PC9 shouldn't be that much of a departure. YMMV.

Good luck on your choice!

jmm

 

[cidirkona]

*cough cough* SKS *cough*

You can get converted WASR AKs around here for 360-370, but SKSs can still be had for $150ish. With a $500 budget, you could still get 3000 rounds!

-Colin

 

[heypete]

I'll vote for the SKS or the SU-16. I love both of mine, and they're both constant comanions at the range.

 

[Correia]

See 444's link.

If you are leaning one way, maybe making it a whole lot cheaper might make your choice easier, but then again I'm biased.

And they are about 2 MOA guns.

A switch to pistol grip doesn't hinder you at all once you have mastered the fundamentals of riflemanship. It really is all the same after that.

 

[TexAg]

Saiga/AK/Vepr

New here too, been cruising awhile and been on GlockTalk awhile, but the rifle and shotguns sections on here are much more active and informative than over there.

Of course I've got to recommend the gun I bought not too long ago (and not very different from the Vepr either) which is a 16" bbl Saiga in 7.62x39. I too do not particualr want/like a pistol grip and the Saiga is basically an AK (built in Izmash with real Russian AKs) with a sporter stock. The best part is it only cost $220 and the ammo is super cheap too. Now they aren't being imported from Russia right now (although they are supposed to resume importation soon) but you can still find them for a similar price if you look around.

So far this has been a great gun, at 100 yards, open sights I'm getting 3" with Wolf ammo (I can only get 3" with a scoped Mini-14 too) and its a breeze to shoot, short and quick handling too. It comes with only 10 round mags but thats OK to me because it makes for an easier handling pig gun without a long mag sticking out. You can make standard 30 round AK mags fit with a few modifications, but you have to change a few parts out to make it legal. Not a concern to me really right now, although I may do that in the future. The Saiga 10 rounders are also easily converted to 15 rounds (but again to legally do this you have to change out a few parts like piston rod and trigger group with US made parts). Siaga made some 30 rounders too but they are hard to find and expensive right now, but hopefully that will change when improtation starts again. Check out Saiga-12.com for more info.

I'm thinking of adding a red dot or low power scope to mine its such a nice gun and I want to explore its accuracy potential. Good luck with your decision and purchase.

PS. SKS is cool too...way cheap, good bang for your buck. I am thinking of getting one for my bro-in-law as his first rifle.

 

[jefnvk]

in college, limited funds (500ish price range, maybe exception if AR is best)

Heh, aren't we all?

Unissued Yugo SKS. Should cost you under $200. Sure, its got the GL on the end, but you won't find a better gun right now than a $180 unissued Yugo SKS. They are pretty much a factory new semi-auto 7.62x39 rifle.

If you want an AR, consider building your own. Mine totaled $606, plus two hours of fun and experience putting it together. It was not difficult at all.

 

[RiverwinoIA]

I've looked at SKS's, and have come to the conclusion that i just dont like em that much. I'm not a fan of its length, or the stripper clips. Price isnt THAT big of an issue, I'll save for something i really want.

i suppose my best bet would be to find a range around here where i can shoot as many of them as i can.

one thing ive noticed many people say about the vepr's is that they are heavy (11lbs. w/30rounder ?) This would probably be a bad thing if i was going to hike with it or try to clear a house, but will it be a big deal for casual shooting? I cant see it causing that much trouble, but im a newbie...

 

[jefnvk]

Another option, if you are a fan of the old-school battle rifles, is an M1 Garand from CMP. Not as cheap to shoot, but a genuine piece of American history. Plus, service grades are $500, field grades $375, so they are in your price range.

 

[Correia]

River,

As far as moving fast with a heavy gun, here are the scores from a rifle match I shot Saturday using a Vepr K. Ranges were from CQB to 200 yards. There was lots of movement and shooting from various positions. The I is for iron and the O is for optics.

http://www.udpl.net/results/2005/Rifle-CarbineResultsByTime5-28-05.pdf

The guy ahead of me is good, really good. The shooters at UDPL are very good, and this was a challenging match.

Just an example that this gun does shoot well. So got to disagree with Domino from personal experience, the accuracy is better than typical AK accuracy.

 

[RiverwinoIA]

looks like you did darn well with the VEPR Correia,

what caliber were you using for the competition?

 

[Correia]

7.62x39. Cheap ammo = lots of practice.

That is why I'm getting a .223 this go around and running an EOtech on it. I'll admit, I'm a gamer.

 

[MrAcheson]

The 10/22 was modeled after the handling of the M1 Carbine, but you would be hard pressed to find a new or used M1 in your price range. I have an Auto Ordinance M1 that I really like, but I spent more than $500 for it and have put more money into with a scope, etc. since.

The SKS is probably a good choice.