Carbine load testing with mixed range brass/plated bullets in 9mm-40S&W-45ACP

[LiveLife]

I am starting this new thread because I use mixed range brass.

My decision to get AR type carbine was due to availability issue and higher cost of 22LR ammunition during 2008-2016 as I had plenty of 9mm reloading components and could reload at almost comparable cost. Since I did plinking with 22LR at 25-50 yards, I figured 9mm carbine would be suitable for that task and be good training platform for family/friends using AR rifles.

In the "Pistol loads = What causes flyers other than the shooter?" thread, it was determined the use of mixed range brass was a major contributor of flyers. While I worked to identify very accurate bullet/powder/charge combinations in the "PISTOL - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions" thread, shooter factor practically limited range testing to 25 yards so no objective iron sight 50 yard testing for this shooter wearing progressive glasses.

So I figured I would do 25-50-100 yard testing with carbines using scopes and purchased 17" Just Right carbine with modular magwell that allowed caliber changes to 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP. Testing will also include 16" PSA 9mm carbine.

Unlike other Handloading & Reloading threads, goal of this thread is not to attain the smallest shot groups using premium components and new/once-fired/headstamp sorted brass but to chronicle the development of various 9/40/45 caliber loads suitable for plinking using lower cost yet accurate bullets and powders.

So if you reload with mixed range brass and plated bullets for lower cost range practice/plinking loads, enjoy the discussion.

 

[joneb]

I don't have or reload for 40 S$W. As for 9x19 and 45acp I notice a considerable variation between head stamps, so I sort my brass and I am happier for doing it.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, as I posted in the OP the use of once-fired/headstamp sorted cases will reduce flyers as discussed in this thread but such carbine testing will be done in a different thread.

This thread is about carbine loads using mixed range brass as these plinking carbine loads will replace 22LR ammunition at almost comparable cost.

 

[joneb]

I see, sorry for the interruption

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Glad we have already had some good discussions already and shared information on carbines and tests. Its a new found love for me. This is a great idea.

As i posted about my new tests on my carbine i left out that i was using mixed brass and if i had to sort or use certain brass for testing or fun would be further than i would be willing to go.

Reason being i dont mind developing loads and testing them to see what a gun can do within reason. But there is no way i will spend my time sorting brass. Heck i counted by weight last year just to see how many i had for the reason of obtaining a certain number i feel will fill my needs.

Time enough spent doing so many things i would rather be learning what something can do within reason and avoid any ocd behavior that would detract from the fun. In short i agree that for me, sorting thousands of rounds is just not going to happen.

Feel free to use anything ive already posted like test results if you feel the need.

Should be fun to have a carbine thread that doesn't go too far. The concept tends to separate the pistol caliber carbines from the long range rifle precision accuracy type loading.

Should be fun!

 

[LiveLife]

I agree.

While we may sort/process rifle brass to an extent of OCD, most of us do not sort/process pistol brass for general purpose range practice/plinking load other than cleaning/polishing. I will sort commercial/military .308 brass by headstamp and internal case volume but not for .223/5.56 brass as I only plink out to 100 yards with my ARs.

As I reviewed various carbine threads, I noticed complaints of lack of accuracy from carbine loads at 50 and 100 yards. At first, I tried to see if there was a correlation between carbine brands vs accuracy vs caliber but the general consensus was that carbine accuracy averaged 3" at 50 yards and 5" at 100 yards even for factory ammo.

For many reloaders used to 1"-2" groups at 100 yards, this may be appalling and think something is wrong with their carbines or the reloads. I too was a bit surprised at first but after reading more carbine threads, many explained the pistol groups we see at 15-25 yards using mixed range brass are start of clusters of flyers that will grow to patterns at 50 and 100 yards as most pistol bullets were not made to be aerodynamic to 100+ yards. With this consideration, sorting of brass for carbine plinking loads becomes less significant.

I will be doing some carbine load testing with JHP/plated HP bullets and these bullets with better center of mass may benefit from sorting of brass but that's for another thread.

I think it's good to have different threads with differing focus. Your carbine/pistol chrono comparison thread is a good reference as many (like me) have been curious about the velocity increase/difference between pistol and carbine length barrels.

 

[LiveLife]

Disclaimer: Following post contains unpublished loads - Use them at your own risk.

Winchester 115 gr FMJ with 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 has been my reference 9mm load over the years and more recently 124/125 gr plated/lead RN with 4.0 gr Red Dot/Promo has become my plinking load so I decided to start my carbine load testing with these loads first (Per Alliant, 2004 Red Dot load data was referenced for Promo loads by weight) - http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx

- 115 gr Winchester FMJ @ 1.135" with 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38/4.0-4.2 gr Promo
- 115 gr Berry's HBRN @ 1.135" with 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38/4.0-4.2 gr Promo
- 115 gr RMR HM RN @ 1.135" with 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38/4.0-4.2 gr Promo

Notes:

- Pro Auto Disk measures dropped HP-38 with 4.8-4.9 gr variance and Promo with 4.0-4.2 gr variance as verified by Ohaus 10-10 beam scale
- Mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times were used
- Fiocchi SP primer was used as larger cup diameter primer can extend the life of older brass with enlarged primer pockets
- For Winchester 115 gr FMJ with .355" diameter, .376" taper crimp was used
- For Berry's 115 gr HBRN with .3555" diameter and RMR 115 gr HM RN with .356" diameter, .377" taper crimp was used.
- Groups were shot from rifle rest using 3-9x40 Bushnell scope
- Caldwell chrono was used at 10 feet and 22LR CCI 40 gr Standard Velocity (1070 fps) lead RN was used as reference

Range Report (Test carbine used was 16" PSA 9mm carbine kit built on Anderson stripped lower):

22LR 40 gr CCI (1070 fps) chrono test: 1041-1040-1040-1070-1033 fps
115 gr Winchester FMJ 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38 @ 1.135": 1315-1234-1334-1307-1296 fps
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.0-4.2 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1331-1358-1346 fps

25 yard groups (I used Winchester FMJ HP-38 loads to zero the scope so I reserved the remaining rounds for 50/100 yard testing):

50 yard groups

100 yard groups

Note: Since the scope was zero'ed at 50 yards, for the 100 yard groups, initial shot was fired to determine the bullet drop (red circle) and subsequent 5 round shot group was obtained.

 

[LiveLife]

Since PSA 9mm carbine cycled well with sufficient velocities, for the second range trip HP-38 charge was dropped to 4.6 gr and Promo charge was dropped to 3.9-4.0 gr and following loads were tested:

- 115 gr Berry's HBRN @ 1.135" with 4.6 gr HP-38/3.9-4.0 gr Promo
- 115 gr RMR HM RN @ 1.135" with 4.6 gr HP-38/3.9-4.0 gr Promo

Notes: 8-10 round shot groups were used instead of 5 due to limited number of test rounds

Range Report (Test carbine used was 16" PSA 9mm carbine kit built on Anderson stripped lower):

115 gr Berry's HBRN 4.6 gr HP-38 @ 1.135": 1264-1270-1233-1246-1288 fps
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.6 gr HP-38 @ 1.135": 1187-1240-1290-1239-1260 fps
(Average of 40 fps drop from 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38 loads)

115 gr Berry's HBRN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1275-1261-1316-1287-1294 fps
115 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1204-1276-1259-1273-1247 fps
(Average of 80 fps drop from 4.0-4.2 gr Promo loads)

50 yard groups

100 yard group (Remaining mixed rounds of Berry's/RMR loads were shot)

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Interesting but it seems possible, if i am reading the groups correctly, that the promo got better groups with the heavier charge using Berry's bullets but the opposite with RMR bullets?

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, that made me pause and ponder too.

When is a cluster of bullet holes a "group" with flyers or a "pattern"? That's where I agree with jmorris and decided to shoot 10 shot groups instead of 5 shot groups.

If you look at RMR HP-38 shot group, I thought I was getting a group just over 3" until I got two flyers up top. And with RMR Promo shot group, I was getting tighter 2"+ group until flyers opened up.

If you exclude the flyers, then yes Promo group was smaller than HP-38 group for THIS range trip. While I was planning to focus on 124 gr bullets for accuracy, I am going to do more range tests in the future.

 

[LiveLife]

Forecasted rain did not happen to allow for a quick range test of 124 gr loads.

Before I return the two completed PSA carbines to my sister/BIL, I wanted to test some 124 gr loads to see how they shot as 124 gr loads shot better in my pistols compared to 115 gr loads.

For this range trip, I also wanted to test if there was a significant difference between using mixed range brass vs once-fired/same headstamp cases. So the following loads were prepared:

Mixed range brass:
- 124 gr RMR HM RN @ 1.160" with 4.3 gr HP-38
- 124 gr RMR HM RN @ 1.160" with 3.9-4.0 gr Promo
- 124 gr RMR HM RN @ 1.160" with 5.2 gr BE-86
- 124 gr RMR JHP @ 1.125" with 3.2 gr HP-38

Once-fired .FC. headstamp brass:
- 124 gr RMR JHP @ 1.125" with 3.2 gr HP-38

Notes:

- Due to longer bullet base, I used longer 1.160" OAL as PSA barrel with longer leade will allow longer than SAAMI max of 1.169"
- For .355" sized 124 gr RMR JHP bullet, .376" taper crimp was used
- For .356" sized 124 gr RMR HM RN, .377" taper crimp was used
- Groups were shot from rifle rest using 3-9x40 Bushnell scope
- Caldwell chrono was used at 10 feet and 22LR CCI 40 gr Standard Velocity (1070 fps) lead RN was used as reference


Range Report (Test carbine used was 16" PSA 9mm carbine kit built on Anderson stripped lower):

22LR 40 gr CCI (reference 1070 fps) chrono test: 1038-1040-1039-1052-1037 fps
124 gr RMR HM RN 4.3 gr HP-38: 1078-1116-1124-1104-1103 fps
124 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo: 1231-1201-1210-1227-1193 fps
124 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr BE-86: 1179-1149-1178-1170-1197 fps
124 gr RMR JHP 3.2 gr HP-38: 820-838-784-807-860 fps


50 yard testing started with RMR HM RN and 4.3 gr HP-38 producing around 3.5" shot group (or would you call that a pattern?)

Note: Oval/elongation of holes on targets was due to tilting of cardboard backing

I was anxious to see what once-fired, same headstamp load would do so RMR JHP load with .FC. cases were shot next and 3" group/pattern was formed without flyers. BUT the surprise came when tighter 2" group/pattern was forming with the mixed brass load until I shot two flyers!

Still somewhat perplexed from seeing tighter group with mixed brass load, I shot the BE-86 rounds next expecting even smaller group but what I got was a 5" shotgun pattern? What happened? Then the Promo load was shot with similarly large 5" pattern ...

 

[LiveLife]

After dinner, I was thinking about the chrono data vs shot group size and the perplexing situation of getting smaller JHP core group size with mixed range brass.

124 gr RMR HM RN 4.3 gr HP-38: 1078-1116-1124-1104-1103 fps
124 gr RMR JHP 3.2 gr HP-38: 820-838-784-807-860 fps

124 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr BE-86: 1179-1149-1178-1170-1197 fps
124 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo: 1231-1201-1210-1227-1193 fps

Possible transonic effect on group size?

124 gr RN with 4.3 gr HP-38 bullets were subsonic (below ~1126 fps) and produced 3.5" group/pattern without flyers. And 124 gr JHP with 3.2 gr HP-38 bullets were subsonic also and produced 3" group/pattern without flyers except when mixed brass was used (but core group was smaller 2.5").

But when 124 gr RN with 5.2 gr BE-86/3.9-4.0 gr Promo bullets went supersonic at 1149-1231 fps at 10 feet, they would have gone transonic/subsonic before traveling to 50 yards.

I thought transonic effect on pistol bullets would be small but wondering about the group size increase.


Perplexing situation of getting a smaller core group size with mixed brass?

Only plausible explanation I could come up with was 8 out of 10 mixed brass used for the range test "could" have been consistent enough (even though they varied in headstamp) to produce a core group and 2 cases varied enough to cause flyers.

If that's the case, another question still remains why mixed brass group was smaller at 2.5" compared to 3.0" for once-fired .FC. headstamp load?


I am stumped.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Yes, that made me pause and ponder too.

When is a cluster of bullet holes a "group" with flyers or a "pattern"? That's where I agree with jmorris and decided to shoot 10 shot groups instead of 5 shot groups.

If you look at RMR HP-38 shot group, I thought I was getting a group just over 3" until I got two flyers up top. And with RMR Promo shot group, I was getting tighter 2"+ group until flyers opened up.

If you exclude the flyers, then yes Promo group was smaller than HP-38 group for THIS range trip. While I was planning to focus on 124 gr bullets for accuracy, I am going to do more range tests in the future.

Cant wait. Since i may be moving to 124gr it would be nice to see what you come up with.

I have a few more 9mm 115gr loads to test tomorrow using the same cast rounds and i will try to get some accuracy results to share.

Also have 500 plated 115gr X-Treme rn to test when they come in. Cant wait to compare it all and see whats what.

Have to use last weeks loads too for accuracy test. Never got time. Heck i was there 4vhours testing and sighting in the carbine. Should have more time tomorrow.

 

[LiveLife]

Well, while 124 gr loads did better than 115 gr loads, Walkalong's PM said he used even lighter bullets and I have 95 gr Montana Gold JHP so I may do further testing.

I am starting to think transonic effect on carbine loads may indeed be true as all the subsonic 124 gr loads shot better than supersonic 124 gr loads (3" vs 5" @ 50 yards).

My time off from work is coming to an end and out of town work assignment won't allow me to do further testing except for weekends when it's not raining so I will update the thread as shooting opportunity becomes available and with Just Right carbine.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Interesting. If transonic loads do work better maybe the 124gr loads and even heavier loads with certain powders.

Seems the longer bullet in subsonic speeds could hold a better flight path.

Who knows. Should be fun.

 

[lauderdale]

Taking scope choices out of the mix. Enough going on here.

 

[LiveLife]

I have to ask Scope choice? For 100yds. just curios?

I am the wrong person to ask and you should ask the question in the "Long Gun Sights & Accessories" category - http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=73

For the PSA carbine testing, I used Bushnell Sportsman 3-9x40 scope I got on sale ($40) for my 10/22 Takedown. Maybe that explains my 50/100 yard groups.

I also have two CenterPoint 4-16x40 AO IR scopes I got for $70 that I use for 20" Bushmaster HBAR and 16" .300 BLK and I mounted one on the Just Right carbine. My current shooting spot is marked to 100 yards and another spot to 300 yards and CenterPoint scopes have held their zero well when I shot them with my 16" Saiga 308.

For 100 yard shooting with carbine, CenterPoint is now $100 and you should be able to get better scopes. How about Bushnell Banner 4-12x40 AO Dusk & Dawn? - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0730T7HD0ESHY4XT3E6G

Scopes mounted on JR and PSA carbines

 

[lauderdale]

Thank u. I no w/to do now. John.

 

[LiveLife]

I got into 9mm carbine to replace plinking with 22LR due to ammunition cost and I had plenty of 9mm components.

At first, I was only interested in 25/50 yard accuracy but jmorris' thread "Most accurate 9mm load - carbine" got me interested in 100 yard accuracy with carbine loads.

You could certainly spend more money on better scopes but at 50 yard and occasional 100 yard plinking, I think lower cost 3-9x40/4-12x40 should work as recoil from 9mm loads were very mild.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Dont know if i would call it an update but i got to test a few rounds today.

It was a disappointing day to say the least. I have been unable. to mount an optic do to the busy schedule and acquired a new bolt action .

The bolt action was the highlight of the day but nothing to write home about. Just a promising set of results.

Anyhow, due to time constraints and another shooter doing stupid things i had to limit accuracy testing and was only able to come away with a few results.

Of those results the promising and the dismal are the only two worth mentioning and further testing is needed with a scope mounted and sighted to really get through the muddle of the middle and find out what is really what.

The low is a two part low. One is that i tested some x-treme 115fr RN and these things were not grouping at all. I loaded up two loads using Red Dot one at 3.9gr and one at 4.2gr.

I mean i was getting off paper shots on a 12" target at 50yds. Granted the sights need a slight adjusting as they are about 3" high and right in the 2 o'clock range.

Needless to say the red dot loads using the plated 115gr rn were a bust.

Velocities were in the low1200's with an 1190 thrown in there. Average was around 1210 fps for the 3.9 gr and the 4.2 gr were averaging around 1245 fps.

Now comes the good part and its not great by any means. The auto comp loads consisted of 2 loads using the coated 115gr fp. Loads were 5.1gr and 5.3 gr. Oal 1.10".

Average of both loads were in the 1400's. 5.1 gr was right at 1400 range with 2 of the 10 rounds dipping into the 1380-1390 range. 5.3 gr average 1435 range.

Grouping was tighter than the red dot loads around 4.0" @50 yds with open sights. Neither load was better than the other in grouping.

Considering the red dot loads scattering worse than a shotgun i felt they showed promise.

I halfheartedly retested the same unique loads and power pistol loads and they were grouping in the 6" range on average.

Just an off day for me with more distractions from a guy setting a few targets over that should never have had a gun.

4 times the guy jumped up and started up the hill to his target without a ceasefire. Two times he pointed his .22 rifle dead at me. After calling him out 4 times, 2 for pointing his gun at me and 2 started up a hot range i just gave up hearing his apologies and saying anything when he started up the hill.

Finally i saved what extra test ammo i had, packed up and went home.

Tomorrow I'm going out again but with no time to mount an optic i will save testing for another day. Hopefully this week.

 

[LiveLife]

After exchanging PMs regarding carbine loads, I am thinking about trying lighter than 115 gr bullets as suggested by Walkalong.

With 115 gr bullet loads at 1300-1350 fps, I think bullets are slowing down enough at 50-100 yards to experience transonic effects. Keeping lighter bullets at supersonic speeds may improve accuracy at 50-100 yards and flatten the trajectory too for less bullet drop. I have 95 gr MG JHP, 100 gr RMR HM RN and 100 gr X-Treme RNFP bullets to test.

I think key to carbine load accuracy is either keeping lighter bullets supersonic to target or subsonic.

Since I got promising ~3" shot group at 50 yards with 124 gr RMR HM RN and HP-38 around 1100 fps, I am going to test other subsonic loads at 50-100 yards.

I also have 147 gr plated bullets so curious how they will do.

 

[lauderdale]

Thanks bds I haven't sighted it in yet but took off the bushnell trs-25 red .dot. Going to remove my tru. glo. and put the bushn. red dot.on the .40 mech tech. upper. I haven't sighted in the Bushnell banner yet but put it on the J.R. .45 carbine w/low pro. 6" monstrum rail nice/very nice!

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I'm curious how how the 147 gr do too. Looking forward to seeing the results.

I've had bad accuracy results with 90-95 gr in pistol so I'm curious as to how they turn out too. Some people say they have much better results than me. But I've only loaded them with WSF and WST.



I have to start over on the 115gr plated because the load i tested was awfully disappointing and your groups looked better @ 50yds than my plated did @25. Plus a scope properly mounted and adjusted might help on my end.

Got some of my 120gr TC cast bullets to powder coat and size before i get back out and run everything through the accuracy test.

My theory is that the biggest accuracy flaw in the 9mm is the oal of the bullet alone. Seems if it were to get better the bullet should be longer. But longer bullets made of lead are heavier.

I would think a longer bullet would add the same characteristics as a rifle bullet. Well not to the degree of rifle accuracy because of length and weight restrictions, but an improvement overall.


Okay i may be going further than necessary here. Better sticking to what we have to work with i recon. So i digress.

 

[joneb]

I've never loaded mixed headstamps. I put a Simmons 22 mag. scope on a Marlin camp 45, I new the gun was accurate with iron sights so I wondered how it would do scoped.

The scope began to fail after I sighted it in, I did manage to get a 3 rnd group from it at 50 yds.
The load was,
Nosler 185gr JHP
7.8gr of Unique
Thats all I have.

 

[LiveLife]

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