lauderdale
Member
WOW! nice! there 9mm. conversion kit should be in shortly?
Carbine load testing with mixed range brass/plated bullets in 9mm-40S&W-45ACP
- Thread starter LiveLife
- Start date
- Status
Any updates on bullet testing in the carbines? Any conclusions about using lighter weight bullets giving better groups?
I am really thinking about getting a 9mm carbine now since I just saw that uspsa has a provisional division for them. It'd be nice to have a good starting place for working up load/bullet combo for it.
I was originally hoping I could just use the same as I do in my pistol, but after reading through this thread...maybe not.
I am really thinking about getting a 9mm carbine now since I just saw that uspsa has a provisional division for them. It'd be nice to have a good starting place for working up load/bullet combo for it.
I was originally hoping I could just use the same as I do in my pistol, but after reading through this thread...maybe not.
lauderdale
Member
I cant add to this as it is about cost of .9mm/versus .22cal. w/mixed brass. I sort and w/.45 and the J.R. Carb. been using the lightest say 185gr. haps/xtp's and been testing the new rmr 185 fps. w/B.E. P.P. T.G. . w/very good rsults @30 to 50 yds. .
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
I have been working out of town the past several weeks and maybe able to do more testing this coming weekend.
Yes, for this thread, economy of reloads is a factor as I am trying to replace the plinking cost of 22LR but I want to squeeze out as much accuracy as I can.
I originally intended on testing loads using mixed range brass and plated bullets with my Just Right carbine and 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP caliber conversion kits. Currently, I am trying to refine 9mm loads with 100 and 115 gr bullets before I move onto 124/147 gr bullets then on to 45ACP testing with 200/230 gr bullets.
What I found when I built two PSA carbines for my sister/BIL is that they had 1:10 twist rate barrels while JR carbine has 1:16 twist rate barrel. Since most AR based 9mm carbines seem to have 1:10 twist rate, I ordered 16" PSA upper with freefloat keymod handguard, 9mm carbine buffer and Magpul CTR stock/lower kit to do comparison tests along with JR carbine as more THR members and guests will likely have AR based carbines with 1:10 barrels than JR carbines (it also gave me an excuse to build another 9mm carbine for my birthday
).
So I hope to have another range report by this weekend.
Yes, for this thread, economy of reloads is a factor as I am trying to replace the plinking cost of 22LR but I want to squeeze out as much accuracy as I can.
I originally intended on testing loads using mixed range brass and plated bullets with my Just Right carbine and 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP caliber conversion kits. Currently, I am trying to refine 9mm loads with 100 and 115 gr bullets before I move onto 124/147 gr bullets then on to 45ACP testing with 200/230 gr bullets.
What I found when I built two PSA carbines for my sister/BIL is that they had 1:10 twist rate barrels while JR carbine has 1:16 twist rate barrel. Since most AR based 9mm carbines seem to have 1:10 twist rate, I ordered 16" PSA upper with freefloat keymod handguard, 9mm carbine buffer and Magpul CTR stock/lower kit to do comparison tests along with JR carbine as more THR members and guests will likely have AR based carbines with 1:10 barrels than JR carbines (it also gave me an excuse to build another 9mm carbine for my birthday
).So I hope to have another range report by this weekend.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Shot groups and chrono numbers from previous range test for comparison (Initial testing with 100 gr bullet):
100 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr HP-38: 1459-1424-1423-1465-1413 fps
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr HP-38: 1275-1263-1253-1290-1248 fps
It rained most of yesterday and there was a short break enough for me to do a quick range test.
Since 100 gr RN produced tight group with 5.2 gr of HP-38 (5.1-5.5 gr Start/Max), I wanted to see how higher charge did. I also wanted to see how Promo performed with lighter 100 gr bullet.
So these loads were tested using RMR HM 100 gr RN (.356") at 1.050" with .378" taper crimp (powder charges were weighed):
5.5 gr HP-38: 1493-1468-1432-1479-1454 fps
4.5 gr Promo: 1442-1428-1478-1431-1462 fps
Since 5.5 gr HP-38 group opened up from 5.2 gr, I wanted to verify the accuracy again. Since 4.5 gr Promo group had 1.5" horizontal spread, I loaded up the following using Pro Auto Disk:
- 5.5-5.6 gr HP-38
- 4.5-4.7 gr Promo (most of drops were 4.6 gr)
It also rained this morning and forecast predicted rain all day so I grabbed my rain gear and went shooting while wondering what effect rain drops have on bullet trajectory. (Due to light rain, I only chronoed the higher Promo load as I wasn't sure how water resistant the Caldwell chrono was)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo: 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps
This was a surprise!
Even with .2 gr variance in powder charges, this is the smallest variance in velocity I have observed with my carbine loads.
As indicated by the chrono numbers, 4.5-4.7 gr Promo load produced tight group (around 1.5") with very little bullet drop. In comparison, 5.5-5.6 gr HP-38 load produced smaller than 2.0" group.
When rain started to fall heavily, I stopped shooting so testing at 100 yards will be done another day.
As far as 4.5-4.7 gr Promo load goes, I think I found my accurate load for RMR HM 100 gr RN which is essentially 100% case fill load and I will repeat the testing with Red Dot on future range tests.
As for W231/HP-38, I will work down from 5.5 gr and test 5.4 and 5.3 gr loads next.
My order from PSA for 16" keymod handguard upper should arrive soon so I will repeat the HP-38/Promo load testing with a new carbine.
100 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr HP-38: 1459-1424-1423-1465-1413 fps
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr HP-38: 1275-1263-1253-1290-1248 fps
It rained most of yesterday and there was a short break enough for me to do a quick range test.
Since 100 gr RN produced tight group with 5.2 gr of HP-38 (5.1-5.5 gr Start/Max), I wanted to see how higher charge did. I also wanted to see how Promo performed with lighter 100 gr bullet.
So these loads were tested using RMR HM 100 gr RN (.356") at 1.050" with .378" taper crimp (powder charges were weighed):
5.5 gr HP-38: 1493-1468-1432-1479-1454 fps
4.5 gr Promo: 1442-1428-1478-1431-1462 fps
Since 5.5 gr HP-38 group opened up from 5.2 gr, I wanted to verify the accuracy again. Since 4.5 gr Promo group had 1.5" horizontal spread, I loaded up the following using Pro Auto Disk:
- 5.5-5.6 gr HP-38
- 4.5-4.7 gr Promo (most of drops were 4.6 gr)
It also rained this morning and forecast predicted rain all day so I grabbed my rain gear and went shooting while wondering what effect rain drops have on bullet trajectory. (Due to light rain, I only chronoed the higher Promo load as I wasn't sure how water resistant the Caldwell chrono was)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo: 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps
This was a surprise!
Even with .2 gr variance in powder charges, this is the smallest variance in velocity I have observed with my carbine loads.
As indicated by the chrono numbers, 4.5-4.7 gr Promo load produced tight group (around 1.5") with very little bullet drop. In comparison, 5.5-5.6 gr HP-38 load produced smaller than 2.0" group.
When rain started to fall heavily, I stopped shooting so testing at 100 yards will be done another day.
As far as 4.5-4.7 gr Promo load goes, I think I found my accurate load for RMR HM 100 gr RN which is essentially 100% case fill load and I will repeat the testing with Red Dot on future range tests.
As for W231/HP-38, I will work down from 5.5 gr and test 5.4 and 5.3 gr loads next.
My order from PSA for 16" keymod handguard upper should arrive soon so I will repeat the HP-38/Promo load testing with a new carbine.
Attachments
Last edited:
I finally took the RRA 9MM AR and four loads to the range today. The 4-H kids were using the 100 yard range, a couple of folks had the 300 yard range tied up, and halfway through setting up in the long pistol pit where I could get a 45 yard shot, a fellow kindly asked me to move to another pistol pit because they are going to use it in the State IDPA championship and were getting ready to start setting up.
Just wasn't my day. Maybe tomorrow.
Just wasn't my day. Maybe tomorrow.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Some days, nothing seems to go your way.
Shooting in the rain was doable but not ideal for accuracy testing. I do not envy those who have to work in the rain or foul weather.
- Since JR carbine has 1:16 twist rate barrel, I will be conducting repeat accuracy testing with same 100/115 gr loads using PSA carbine with 1:10 twist rate to see how difference in barrel twist rate effects accuracy with 100/115 gr bullet.
- Now that I have tested max load with HP-38, since lower charge of 5.2 gr produced tighter 1" horizontal spread with 100 gr bullet, I am wondering if I missed the accuracy node and will test lower charges to verify.
- I feel I have more than achieved my goal of "minute of soda can" at 50 yards using 100/115 gr bullets with W231/HP-38 and Red Dot/Promo using cheaper plated bullets and mixed range brass. I plan on testing other powders but wanted to fine tune the reference/cheapest load combos first.
- Subsequent repeated accuracy testing is verifying mixed range brass is less of a factor for causing flyers when used with blow back carbines if right combination of bullet weight/powders/charges are used. My brass have around 5-10 reloads on average now with most of them being WIN/FC/.FC./RP/BLAZER headstamp. I have seen occasional flyers but they are low in numbers for me to happily keep using mixed range brass.
- For brass that have been fired multiple times with slightly enlarged primer pockets, I am continuing to use Fiocchi SP primers with larger diameter than CCI/Winchester SP primers for snug fit. I have considered using Tula SP primers but the batch I have experienced occasional FTF due to thicker cups and they have been working well in small primer 45ACP cases so I will use them up in my 45 pistols until the next batch.
So far, this sure has been an eye opening journey and I am learning a lot along the way.
Shooting in the rain was doable but not ideal for accuracy testing. I do not envy those who have to work in the rain or foul weather.
- Since JR carbine has 1:16 twist rate barrel, I will be conducting repeat accuracy testing with same 100/115 gr loads using PSA carbine with 1:10 twist rate to see how difference in barrel twist rate effects accuracy with 100/115 gr bullet.
- Now that I have tested max load with HP-38, since lower charge of 5.2 gr produced tighter 1" horizontal spread with 100 gr bullet, I am wondering if I missed the accuracy node and will test lower charges to verify.
- I feel I have more than achieved my goal of "minute of soda can" at 50 yards using 100/115 gr bullets with W231/HP-38 and Red Dot/Promo using cheaper plated bullets and mixed range brass. I plan on testing other powders but wanted to fine tune the reference/cheapest load combos first.
- Subsequent repeated accuracy testing is verifying mixed range brass is less of a factor for causing flyers when used with blow back carbines if right combination of bullet weight/powders/charges are used. My brass have around 5-10 reloads on average now with most of them being WIN/FC/.FC./RP/BLAZER headstamp. I have seen occasional flyers but they are low in numbers for me to happily keep using mixed range brass.
- For brass that have been fired multiple times with slightly enlarged primer pockets, I am continuing to use Fiocchi SP primers with larger diameter than CCI/Winchester SP primers for snug fit. I have considered using Tula SP primers but the batch I have experienced occasional FTF due to thicker cups and they have been working well in small primer 45ACP cases so I will use them up in my 45 pistols until the next batch.
So far, this sure has been an eye opening journey and I am learning a lot along the way.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
LOL, had similar experience with all the collapsible stocks. I have a fixed stock on my 20" HBAR and getting a steady consistent cheek weld is definitely better and even thought about using Magpul fixed stock on the carbines - https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-fixed-carbine-stock-mil-spec
But since different shooters of various stature will be shooting the carbines, I will likely keep the collapsible stocks (maybe I will put the fixed stock on the JR carbine for testing purposes).
Nice tight group with Sierra 90 gr JHP! I agree that jacketed bullets do better than plated and was originally planning to test 95 gr Montana Gold JHP bullet for reference but since 100 gr RMR HM RN plated bullet is doing quite well, I may not test it now as I found bullet counts go up fast with carbine shooting compared to pistol. I am finding I shoot 2+ times more rounds when I am shooting carbines than typical range session with pistols (and I shoot 300-500 rounds!).
$72.20/1000 is hard to beat for 100 gr RMR HM RN shipped with 5% THR discount. I am thinking about ordering 4000 which will bring the shipped price down to $70.08/1000. And I still get my minute of soda can accuracy at 50 yards.
After doing a little more tweaking with the 100/115 gr loads, I am thinking about taking a break from 9mm and doing some 45ACP testing with 200/230 gr bullets.
But since different shooters of various stature will be shooting the carbines, I will likely keep the collapsible stocks (maybe I will put the fixed stock on the JR carbine for testing purposes).
Nice tight group with Sierra 90 gr JHP! I agree that jacketed bullets do better than plated and was originally planning to test 95 gr Montana Gold JHP bullet for reference but since 100 gr RMR HM RN plated bullet is doing quite well, I may not test it now as I found bullet counts go up fast with carbine shooting compared to pistol. I am finding I shoot 2+ times more rounds when I am shooting carbines than typical range session with pistols (and I shoot 300-500 rounds!).
$72.20/1000 is hard to beat for 100 gr RMR HM RN shipped with 5% THR discount. I am thinking about ordering 4000 which will bring the shipped price down to $70.08/1000. And I still get my minute of soda can accuracy at 50 yards.
After doing a little more tweaking with the 100/115 gr loads, I am thinking about taking a break from 9mm and doing some 45ACP testing with 200/230 gr bullets.
OK, I'm now a member of the pcc club. I just got home with my new Colt 6951 in 9mm. I will fire it this weekend come hell or high water....
I use 124 gr RMR bullets in my pistol and I'm watching for you guys' reports on the 100 gr. I'd really like to shoot the same in both, but... whatever works best.
I use 124 gr RMR bullets in my pistol and I'm watching for you guys' reports on the 100 gr. I'd really like to shoot the same in both, but... whatever works best.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Looking good!
Now the fun begins.
Now the fun begins.
WOW! I just got back from shooting me new Colt ar 6951 9mm carbine. I LOVE IT! It is so much fun. I shot all my loads I have worked up for my PPQ pistol and they all function just fine. I didn't have a place cleared (yet) to shoot past 30 yds, but I will asap. I chronoed all my rounds and the only thing that surprised me a little was that they were not much faster than from the pistol, maybe 75 to 100 fps faster. Can't wait to go again.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
BTW, this thread is for "plated" bullets ... perhaps we can start a new carbine load thread for jacketed bullets.
Just FYI.
Based on range testing so far, for 9mm carbine loads, 100/115 gr RMR HM RN bullets with Promo will more than likely be my general purpose plinking loads. I will be testing other powders and bullets but these will be my reference loads.
Since Promo has worked well for me with 9mm 124 gr bullets and 45ACP 200/230 gr bullets (BTW, these will be tested next in my carbines), if you have been looking for Promo, it is finally in stock at $113/8 lbs - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10274220#post10274220
... perhaps we can start a new carbine load thread for jacketed bullets.Just FYI.
Based on range testing so far, for 9mm carbine loads, 100/115 gr RMR HM RN bullets with Promo will more than likely be my general purpose plinking loads. I will be testing other powders and bullets but these will be my reference loads.
Since Promo has worked well for me with 9mm 124 gr bullets and 45ACP 200/230 gr bullets (BTW, these will be tested next in my carbines), if you have been looking for Promo, it is finally in stock at $113/8 lbs - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10274220#post10274220
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Continued from post #56 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10245856#post10245856
(All shots were fired with Centerpoint 4-16x40 AO IR scope, UTG Tactical bipod and Caldwell chrono)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo: 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps
I was happy with 50 yard Promo group for "minute of soda can" and 100 yard 10 shots produced around 3" group, good enough for "minute of 2 liter bottle". Walkalong, almost minute of clay pigeon? (JR carbine got a workout on this range session as 200+ rounds were fired without barrel cool down with different 100/115 gr test loads)
While I originally planned on using 115 gr bullet as lightest 9mm carbine load bullet, thanks to Walkalong's suggestion, I am glad to have tested the lighter 100 gr bullet. Kudos to RMR for producing 100 gr thick plated bullet that performed without plating issue to almost 1500 fps. Slower 1:16 twist rate JR carbine stabilized the bullet well to 100 yards without tumbling and will test faster 1:10 PSA carbine in future range sessions.
Based on these 50/100 yard results with Promo, this load will be one of my reference 9mm carbine loads.
I plan on testing other powders with 100 gr RMR HM RN in the future but after I resume my 115 gr bullet testing.
(All shots were fired with Centerpoint 4-16x40 AO IR scope, UTG Tactical bipod and Caldwell chrono)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo: 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps
I was happy with 50 yard Promo group for "minute of soda can" and 100 yard 10 shots produced around 3" group, good enough for "minute of 2 liter bottle". Walkalong, almost minute of clay pigeon?
(JR carbine got a workout on this range session as 200+ rounds were fired without barrel cool down with different 100/115 gr test loads)While I originally planned on using 115 gr bullet as lightest 9mm carbine load bullet, thanks to Walkalong's suggestion, I am glad to have tested the lighter 100 gr bullet. Kudos to RMR for producing 100 gr thick plated bullet that performed without plating issue to almost 1500 fps. Slower 1:16 twist rate JR carbine stabilized the bullet well to 100 yards without tumbling and will test faster 1:10 PSA carbine in future range sessions.
Based on these 50/100 yard results with Promo, this load will be one of my reference 9mm carbine loads.
I plan on testing other powders with 100 gr RMR HM RN in the future but after I resume my 115 gr bullet testing.
Attachments
Last edited:
shooter1
Member
Don't know if it's helpful, but Clays has produced the most consistent SD/ES numbers for me in 9mm. I use it behind the 124 plated RMR for great accuracy in my pistols.
str1
str1
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
I like clean burning Clays along with WST for accuracy but for 9mm carbine load testing with 100 gr bullet, I wanted higher velocity to minimize bullet drop (vertical stringing) at 50/100 yards and stay supersonic to target (to eliminate transonic effect) and W231/HP-38 produce higher velocities than Clays (Hodgdon does not publish 9mm load data for WST).
I also considered WST and Titegroup for testing but both powders can get spikey near max and pushing 100 gr bullet to 1500 fps, I anticipated need for near max/max load data.
As I continue with 115/124/147 gr bullet testing, I may consider testing Clays along with other faster burning powders, particularly for subsonic loads.
I also considered WST and Titegroup for testing but both powders can get spikey near max and pushing 100 gr bullet to 1500 fps, I anticipated need for near max/max load data.
As I continue with 115/124/147 gr bullet testing, I may consider testing Clays along with other faster burning powders, particularly for subsonic loads.
Last edited:
lauderdale
Member
BDS have you used your .45 jr. carbine conversion barrel yet?
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Yes, but I am currently working out of town and coming home on my days off and a recent vacancy at work has prevented me from doing more range testing as I am working more to provide coverage. And wife got like 40 chickens and 2 goats the past 2 months so I have spent most of my free time building "secure" chicken house (more like maximum security chicken mansion inside the pole barn) and related projects for their comfort.
I am currently finishing load testing for 9mm 115 gr bullets with 124/147 gr loads lined up with plans to test 45ACP loads next.
Very frustrating having stacks of ammo boxes loaded up with test loads and not able to go shooting. < wife says she'll let me go shooting once new goats are situated with their condo >
And wife got like 40 chickens and 2 goats the past 2 months so I have spent most of my free time building "secure" chicken house (more like maximum security chicken mansion inside the pole barn) and related projects for their comfort.I am currently finishing load testing for 9mm 115 gr bullets with 124/147 gr loads lined up with plans to test 45ACP loads next.
Very frustrating having stacks of ammo boxes loaded up with test loads and not able to go shooting. < wife says she'll let me go shooting once new goats are situated with their condo
>
lauderdale
Member
Nice! Gotta take care of MOMMA" I call it! As we have no children. Getting older/more funerals god bless. Anyhow I respect what I have learned here on this cite! YEP!
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
For 45ACP, I was initially planning to test RMR 200/230 gr HM RN with W231/HP-38 and Red Dot/Promo.
Is there particular load(s) you want included in the initial testing?
Is there particular load(s) you want included in the initial testing?
lauderdale
Member
I been using 185g. haps/ rmrs 185g. fp. w/ a few powders T.G. B.E. P. pistol. The RMR's are nice! Settled on Jakes brand RMR purchased another thou. . Been hot and slowed down my work ups for what/i do fun. Steel out to 50 when farm field is gone 100+ yds. then for grouping and fun. I like that bushnell banner w/my desert digital JR. carb! P.P. is a favorite as of now. If you would like il send you 30 185g. rmr's on my dime? Thanks John.
OP
OP
LiveLife
Member
Thanks for the offer!
I am actually getting ready to place an order for more RMR bullets to include the new 9mm 115 gr FMJ and will add 45ACP 185 gr bullets as I am finding lighter/faster bullets produce flatter trajectory with less bullet drop to 50/100 yards.
UPDATE - Did not see 185 gr bullets on RMR website. I may take your offer if RMR won't have them restocked soon.
I am actually getting ready to place an order for more RMR bullets to include the new 9mm 115 gr FMJ and will add 45ACP 185 gr bullets as I am finding lighter/faster bullets produce flatter trajectory with less bullet drop to 50/100 yards.
UPDATE - Did not see 185 gr bullets on RMR website. I may take your offer if RMR won't have them restocked soon.
lauderdale
Member
I believe last week they were in stock. Jake helped me out w/these and found/took care of me i will say that personally. I don't know were u would find someone to take care of u like that? I also purchased 500 of the ..380 100 grainers you been using in working w/both carb. for 9mm. loads. Knowing him he will probably chime in. I went w/the lighter b. profile also.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
