Carry ammo....Hand loaded or Factory loaded?
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manyironsinfire
Member
You know, depending on where you live and the mind set that is currently serving as jurors,Too much gun might become an issue in the not so distance future.. Justified shooting or not..But going through a stop sign at 50mph.with a phone glued to your ear and killing an unfortunite biker gets you community sevice and a slap on your wrist and here we are debating whether to carry factory or reloaded ammo, GO FIGURE!!!!!
ChristopherG
Member
I realize it SOUNDS sensible to say 'leave it to the pros; they've done the research and know their terminal ballistics'--as a couple of people have said in this thread. The logic doesn't go very far, however, since I can effectively create the exact same terminal ballisitics, using the exact same projectile in many cases. Once I know that a given round achieves its balance of penetration and expansion with, e.g., a 230 gr. Gold Dot going 8XX fps, the factory's advantage is gone.
What I'm making is not some homebrewed willowbark tea, it's a GENERIC product using the same 'active ingredient' (the projectile) and a suitable delivery system (other components). I could just as well get a similar 'generic' load from a 'pro' reloader like Georgia Arms. But again, I like the ones I make better (even if I did always want the exact same thing manufacturers are turning out, which is only sometimes the case).
So, yeah; the factories have done the research, and I'm glad; but once I know what they're makin', I can (with projectiles that are publically available) make the same stuff (and some proud reloaders will surely claim, reasonably in my experience, to be able to make the same thing Better).
What I'm making is not some homebrewed willowbark tea, it's a GENERIC product using the same 'active ingredient' (the projectile) and a suitable delivery system (other components). I could just as well get a similar 'generic' load from a 'pro' reloader like Georgia Arms. But again, I like the ones I make better (even if I did always want the exact same thing manufacturers are turning out, which is only sometimes the case).
So, yeah; the factories have done the research, and I'm glad; but once I know what they're makin', I can (with projectiles that are publically available) make the same stuff (and some proud reloaders will surely claim, reasonably in my experience, to be able to make the same thing Better).
manyironsinfire
Member
You guys give a very perswaysive argument for carrying reloads that perform like factory, but calk it up to my general cynisicism and parinoia of the legal system.I do'nt think most people think with such clarity of logic as most in this forum do,when things go BANGBANG...(doubletap)
ChristopherG, you know what? I think you changed my mind. I'm going to pick up some Golden Sabers the next time I have the chance and crank some out. My mass produced reloads are as good if not better then factory target/plinking ammo. With a little more care I can produce some SD ammo that far exceeds the consistency of the factory stuff.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Wouldn't begin to know how to do this so factory for me. Less hassle considering...
ChristopherG
Member
Ktulu--right on! You'll be amazed, if you haven't looked, at how affordable Golden Sabers are. Here are 1000 .45s (185 gr) for 87 bucks:
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/736768
For that price, you can afford to play around with your loads and shoot a reasonable amount of your carry load. People who don't reload make it sound like work; people who do reload clearly consider it all another excuse to make superior ammunition. Have a blast!
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/736768
For that price, you can afford to play around with your loads and shoot a reasonable amount of your carry load. People who don't reload make it sound like work; people who do reload clearly consider it all another excuse to make superior ammunition. Have a blast!
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Less likely for the common defensive calibers than the "exotic" calibers, IMHO. I can see a lawyer making an issue of a .500 S&W or even a .44 mag (in a civil case) right now, but probably not a 9mm/.40/.357SIG/.45 anytime soon, simply because these are the calibers the police use.
One other point on this "factory loaded so the jury won't think I'm evil for reloading my own".
How is anyone going to know you reloaded the rounds in question vs. using factory loads?
The brass has a factory headstamp. The bullets are the same one the factory loads. Are they gonna analyze powder or primer residue? For all I know, the powder and primers I use are the same ones tha factory uses.
How is anyone going to know you reloaded the rounds in question vs. using factory loads?
The brass has a factory headstamp. The bullets are the same one the factory loads. Are they gonna analyze powder or primer residue? For all I know, the powder and primers I use are the same ones tha factory uses.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
DaveR ... leaving aside the finer nuances of legal complications etc .... I'd reckon that even a once fired case that had been resized would be detectable! N'est pas? Sorta ''giveaway''?
mtnbkr
Member
But who would bother to check?
I know there are ways to determine if a round fired is a reload or factory load, but would our overworked, underpaid police force bother to get that far into the details? If they know who the shooter is, who the shootee is, and have the gun, bullet case, and bullet (or fragments) in hand, what else would they care about?
Chris
Ala Dan, I've got a box of Super Vel...
It's yellow, and says POLICE ONLY, 110gr JHP .357 Magnum. I guess it was pretty spicy stuff for it's day, but my 158gr .357 Magnum Desert Eagle handloads would probably eat it for lunch now.
I trust my handloading skills, but carry factory ammo for defense. Between the criminal and (sadly inevitable) civil courts, why give the opposition any chance to make you suffer for what should be a clear-cut case of self-defense?
Mtnbkr, trust me, I toured an ATF crime lab when they offered to hire me away from my Air Force forensic lab job back in 1998. The ATF had deep pockets after the Oklahoma City bombing, and their lab showed it. I collect odd ammo, guns, and reloading tools/components. My collection pales in comparison to the reference standards they showed me that day. I struck up a conversation with one of the technicians, he had RCBS and Hornady reloading presses set up right there, and an astounding selection of components to assemble duplicates of anything they found out on the street. Then there's the various chromatographs, x-ray diffractometers, scanning electron microscopes, optical stereomicroscope comparators, and chemical analysis techniques like thin-layer chromatography. All stuff I was used to in the Air Force lab. I was more in awe of the reference standards, and mentioned how jealous I was, because I usually could only afford a pound or two of IMR4895 at a time. It turns out that he was a reloader at home, too, and agreed with me. I was thinking to myself that if I got hired there, maybe I could use their lab setup to make some serious match-grade ammo after hours.
This ATF forensic lab (rather well hidden, I might add) was in California where I had been stationed for 10 years. I let the Air Force bribe me into taking an assignment in Florida, so I snubbed the ATF offer and am finishing up my 20 years active-duty time before I go look for a post-retirement McJob.
So yes, they do know what to look for when it comes to evidence, and I have no doubt that state and local crime labs have those capabilities, too.
It's yellow, and says POLICE ONLY, 110gr JHP .357 Magnum. I guess it was pretty spicy stuff for it's day, but my 158gr .357 Magnum Desert Eagle handloads would probably eat it for lunch now.
I trust my handloading skills, but carry factory ammo for defense. Between the criminal and (sadly inevitable) civil courts, why give the opposition any chance to make you suffer for what should be a clear-cut case of self-defense?
Mtnbkr, trust me, I toured an ATF crime lab when they offered to hire me away from my Air Force forensic lab job back in 1998. The ATF had deep pockets after the Oklahoma City bombing, and their lab showed it. I collect odd ammo, guns, and reloading tools/components. My collection pales in comparison to the reference standards they showed me that day. I struck up a conversation with one of the technicians, he had RCBS and Hornady reloading presses set up right there, and an astounding selection of components to assemble duplicates of anything they found out on the street. Then there's the various chromatographs, x-ray diffractometers, scanning electron microscopes, optical stereomicroscope comparators, and chemical analysis techniques like thin-layer chromatography. All stuff I was used to in the Air Force lab. I was more in awe of the reference standards, and mentioned how jealous I was, because I usually could only afford a pound or two of IMR4895 at a time. It turns out that he was a reloader at home, too, and agreed with me. I was thinking to myself that if I got hired there, maybe I could use their lab setup to make some serious match-grade ammo after hours.
This ATF forensic lab (rather well hidden, I might add) was in California where I had been stationed for 10 years. I let the Air Force bribe me into taking an assignment in Florida, so I snubbed the ATF offer and am finishing up my 20 years active-duty time before I go look for a post-retirement McJob.
So yes, they do know what to look for when it comes to evidence, and I have no doubt that state and local crime labs have those capabilities, too.
YammyMonkey
Member
Both for me. I don't reload currently but wouldn't have a problem with loading my own defensive ammo if I did reload.
williamcrane
Member
Factory or Hand Load
I voted for Factory for legal reasons - I actually trust myself.
I voted for Factory for legal reasons - I actually trust myself.
manyironsinfire
Member
GEWERHR98, You my friend have pretty much resolved any doubts I had .. I too have been reloading for some time and can produce any defensive load I want and do it as well as any factory round..But your statements convince me to carry factory only.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Please, don't sell the labs short - -
The forensics labs definitely DO have the capability to determine if ammo has been reloaded. Do they care? This is another matter entirely.
I don't know the protocols on shooting investigations in other areas, but in my immediate vicinity, all the evidence goes to either Fort Worth PD lab, the Dallas County Forensics lab, or to Department of Public Safety lab in Austin.
Routine examination includes comparison of ALL evidence submitted with the property and evidence sheets prepared by the submitting agency. Believe me, ANY error or discrepancy gets resolved. This could include simply transposing two digits in the serial number. If bullets removed at autopsy are clearly HydraShoks, but the fired brass taken from a revolver is, say, R-P head stamped, it draws attention.
Bullets are normally examined to match them to the empty cases. Extractor and ejector marks are resolved to type of firearm submitted - - or to indicate to the investigators what kind of firearm they should seek. Cases are examined under a low power microscope to see if there are die marks to indicate reloading. I recall one case when the firearms examiner pointed out that cartridge cases had been hand loaded using two different sizing dies.
In another case, the examiners indicated that the muzzle blast pattern on a T-shirt was inconsistent with the type powder used in the factory loaded ammo and empty cases submitted.
A part of any hand loaded ammo submitted is pulled down; the components are weighed and identified. If asked, the examiner can usually provide examples of standard loading data using those components.
AND - - the examiner writes up a very detailed report of his/her findings. It is then up to the agency investigators and the prosecutors what they want to do with it.
Lots of interesting stuff can and does happen in the lab. Firearms examiners do a LOT more than simply say if THIS bullet was fired from THAT gun.
I don't worry about MY hand loads being used to show that I want to load up Sooper Dooper massively destructive anti personnel ammo. I stick pretty close to published loading data. I choose to use factory ammo largely because of agency regulations against using other than factory ammo. And, since they issue me good quality ammo of proven performance, I have no personal stake in failing to comply with the S.O.P.s.
Best to all - -
Johnny
The forensics labs definitely DO have the capability to determine if ammo has been reloaded. Do they care? This is another matter entirely.
I don't know the protocols on shooting investigations in other areas, but in my immediate vicinity, all the evidence goes to either Fort Worth PD lab, the Dallas County Forensics lab, or to Department of Public Safety lab in Austin.
Routine examination includes comparison of ALL evidence submitted with the property and evidence sheets prepared by the submitting agency. Believe me, ANY error or discrepancy gets resolved. This could include simply transposing two digits in the serial number. If bullets removed at autopsy are clearly HydraShoks, but the fired brass taken from a revolver is, say, R-P head stamped, it draws attention.
Bullets are normally examined to match them to the empty cases. Extractor and ejector marks are resolved to type of firearm submitted - - or to indicate to the investigators what kind of firearm they should seek. Cases are examined under a low power microscope to see if there are die marks to indicate reloading. I recall one case when the firearms examiner pointed out that cartridge cases had been hand loaded using two different sizing dies.
In another case, the examiners indicated that the muzzle blast pattern on a T-shirt was inconsistent with the type powder used in the factory loaded ammo and empty cases submitted.
A part of any hand loaded ammo submitted is pulled down; the components are weighed and identified. If asked, the examiner can usually provide examples of standard loading data using those components.
AND - - the examiner writes up a very detailed report of his/her findings. It is then up to the agency investigators and the prosecutors what they want to do with it.
Lots of interesting stuff can and does happen in the lab. Firearms examiners do a LOT more than simply say if THIS bullet was fired from THAT gun.
I don't worry about MY hand loads being used to show that I want to load up Sooper Dooper massively destructive anti personnel ammo. I stick pretty close to published loading data. I choose to use factory ammo largely because of agency regulations against using other than factory ammo. And, since they issue me good quality ammo of proven performance, I have no personal stake in failing to comply with the S.O.P.s.
Best to all - -
Johnny
Same here. "Shooter liability" is a myth started by Adoodi and the ammunition manufacturers to make money.
Lots of people recommend Corbon. I use the same Sierra bullets as Corbon. My preferred powder also has lower flash qualities. I get to witness every case being full of powder before the bullet is placed on top of it. I can adjust penetration by increasing/decreasing velocity. I can confirm the reliability of each 5,000 primers of a certain lot#, not a few factory boxes at a time.
My carry round is my range round and my range round is my carry round. When my range rounds have proved to be 100% reliable the same is true of the carry rounds. I can handload premium defensive ammo for less than most factory range ammunition. I keep my 9mm load within the same velocities of current factory 9mm defensive velocities. They are not some ".357 Sig wannabes". If eveidence were required, I have tablets full of recorded reloading data gathered over the years.
I am a handloader and shooter that shoots handloads.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Okay, since y'all aren't letting this off thread topic on legality die, let me sum up part of the thread. First, nobody has shown that load type (factory, hand, reload) has ever had a negative impact on a criminal case in a justified self defense shooting. If justified for the use of lethal force, a ball point pen, Louisville slugger (hand turned on your own lathe or store bought), handload or factory ammo.
As noted, the information has been brought up in a CIVIL case. As noted, it doesn't mean it will impact the case in a manner successful to the opposition. You can bring up just about anything you want in a civil case and arguments made in a variety of directions. Factory ball ammo is a for bone crushing. Factory hollowpoint ammo is for doing maximum tissue damage and creating maximum pain. Hand/Reloas are super killer ammo, propably loaded to horrible levels. You shoot somebody, count on getting sued. You might not, but it is best to be wary. You will be sued in civil court. You have to be alive to be sued in civil court for you to endure the experience yourself (or at least conscious and not brain damaged).
If carrying factory ammo allows you to fight at your best potential, that is what you need to carry. If some hand or reload is what you need to be at your fighting best, then that is what you need to carry. Carrying is about protecting your life, not worrying about lawyers and and unsubstantiated lawsuits that MIGHT happen IF you are EVER in a self sefense shooting.
As noted, the information has been brought up in a CIVIL case. As noted, it doesn't mean it will impact the case in a manner successful to the opposition. You can bring up just about anything you want in a civil case and arguments made in a variety of directions. Factory ball ammo is a for bone crushing. Factory hollowpoint ammo is for doing maximum tissue damage and creating maximum pain. Hand/Reloas are super killer ammo, propably loaded to horrible levels. You shoot somebody, count on getting sued. You might not, but it is best to be wary. You will be sued in civil court. You have to be alive to be sued in civil court for you to endure the experience yourself (or at least conscious and not brain damaged).
If carrying factory ammo allows you to fight at your best potential, that is what you need to carry. If some hand or reload is what you need to be at your fighting best, then that is what you need to carry. Carrying is about protecting your life, not worrying about lawyers and and unsubstantiated lawsuits that MIGHT happen IF you are EVER in a self sefense shooting.
popbang
Member
Double Naught Spy, very nicely stated.
kimbernut
Member
CCW - Factory or Handloads?
Strictly handloads. Carry that with which you practice. Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers in all..380 Auto,.38 special,9mm,.357 Mag.,.45 ACP. If you are set up to reload and you are confident in the quality of your reloads why in the world would you pay for 20 rounds a price for which you can reload 150-300 rounds(depending on caliber).
Deadly force is deadly force. Even Ayoob himself has begun to back off on this topic stating that there has been no evidence to support it.
Strictly handloads. Carry that with which you practice. Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers in all..380 Auto,.38 special,9mm,.357 Mag.,.45 ACP. If you are set up to reload and you are confident in the quality of your reloads why in the world would you pay for 20 rounds a price for which you can reload 150-300 rounds(depending on caliber).
Deadly force is deadly force. Even Ayoob himself has begun to back off on this topic stating that there has been no evidence to support it.
Mannlicher
Member
I favor Federal HydroShocks for my .45 Autos, .40 Autos, and 9mm, but I go with my hand loads for my .45 Colt and .357/.38 revolvers. For my Mountain Gun, Model 29, I carry CorBon 165 Grain.
Risk management 101
Double Naught Spy has part of the equation right.
Here's a good one from another thread here on THR:
You've made the commitment to train, get the license, and carry, which means you've also made the commitment to defend yourself or loved ones against an attack. If you're like many of the forum members, you've also done some research on what's needed to effectively stop that attack, in one way, shape, or form. That includes the firearm and the choice of ammo. Great. Good for you. You're alive now, you've been cleared of any wrongdoing by the criminal courts, it's ruled a justifiable homicide. Now you're ready to be served on a silver platter to the attorney of your attacker's family in civil court. Don't say it won't happen. To your horror, his arguments about your desire to go ventilate somebody with your super-duper homebrew ammo, and whatever other character asassination he does on you, sways the majority of the jury. (Did you remember that this is civil court, and that a unanimous decision is not necessary for a ruling?) The judge finds that your attacker's civil rights have been violated, and you have to cough up a million bucks or so. Think the NRA is gonna help bail you out on this one?
Or, you could've swallowed your handloading pride just a smidgen when making that CCW commitment, and spent a few bucks for a box of quality factory carry ammo. It's just a little extra cheap insurance that you won't be spared from the frying pan for the later fire.
Unless, of course, they don't make defensive ammo for your carry gun. I've got a 1912 Steyr-Hahn that needs handloads to keep running. If it were my only handgun, and my only defensive carry piece, I could *maybe* see it. Once the course instructors for the carry permit got done with me and the stripper clips needed to reload the darned thing...
Having said that, I do indeed handload practice ammo for my carry guns that pretty much duplicates factory defense ammo in ballistics and recoil. But when I'm done practicing, the factory stuff gets chambered for carry.
Double Naught Spy has part of the equation right.
Here's a good one from another thread here on THR:
You've made the commitment to train, get the license, and carry, which means you've also made the commitment to defend yourself or loved ones against an attack. If you're like many of the forum members, you've also done some research on what's needed to effectively stop that attack, in one way, shape, or form. That includes the firearm and the choice of ammo. Great. Good for you. You're alive now, you've been cleared of any wrongdoing by the criminal courts, it's ruled a justifiable homicide. Now you're ready to be served on a silver platter to the attorney of your attacker's family in civil court. Don't say it won't happen. To your horror, his arguments about your desire to go ventilate somebody with your super-duper homebrew ammo, and whatever other character asassination he does on you, sways the majority of the jury. (Did you remember that this is civil court, and that a unanimous decision is not necessary for a ruling?) The judge finds that your attacker's civil rights have been violated, and you have to cough up a million bucks or so. Think the NRA is gonna help bail you out on this one?
Or, you could've swallowed your handloading pride just a smidgen when making that CCW commitment, and spent a few bucks for a box of quality factory carry ammo. It's just a little extra cheap insurance that you won't be spared from the frying pan for the later fire.
Unless, of course, they don't make defensive ammo for your carry gun. I've got a 1912 Steyr-Hahn that needs handloads to keep running. If it were my only handgun, and my only defensive carry piece, I could *maybe* see it. Once the course instructors for the carry permit got done with me and the stripper clips needed to reload the darned thing...
Having said that, I do indeed handload practice ammo for my carry guns that pretty much duplicates factory defense ammo in ballistics and recoil. But when I'm done practicing, the factory stuff gets chambered for carry.
Actually, when you add up states' Grand Jury trials involving justifiable shootings, with the number of civil gun-ralated cases tried nationwide, the chances are less than 1% that you will be "getting sued".
So DON'T count on it.
Locally, of 11 justifiable shootings over the last 10 years, none of them went on to civil suits.
BluesBear
member
OK, let's inject a few facts here. If any of you have read any of my posts you might have noticed I usually don't give away any excess personal details.
I don't post photos of my guns. I don't post lists of everyting of value I own. I don't tell my entire life story. I tend to be a semi-private person.
But this much I will divulge. The last 2 shots I fired into a human being were handloads. Not a factory duplicate handload either. A 148 CWBH (that's a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards) over a stout fast burning powder tailored for maxium performance from a 2" barrel. There just isn't anybodys factory load that even comes close to being similar. The only thing said to me about it was by the first arrival EMTs. They asked "Do you have any idea how many times he was shot?" I said "To the best of my knowledge twice." The first response police officer asked me quietly, after looking at the wounds, "What the hell did you shoot him with? Where can I get some?"
The subject of ammunition was never again brought up. There was no attempt at filing a civil action either.
And that's all I am going to say on that matter.
I personally know of at least six other self defense shootings involving both sworn police officers as well as private citizens, that involved handloaded ammunition. The type of ammunition was never brought up in Coroner's Inquests, Grand Jury hearings, criminal trials or civil actions.
Either you are justified in using deadly force or you are not. There is no such thing as a right to wound. There is no right to shoot someone just a little.
If you are justified in using deadly force it doesn't matter if it is a .17HMR or a .50BMG. Or a baseball bat, or a three wood, or a PR-24 or a Swiss Army knife, or a brick.
Worry about identifying the threat. Worry about being able to hit your target. Worry about not having enough gun. But NEVER, ever worry about shooting them with too much bullet. Hells Bells I'd be carrying an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator if I could.
I don't post photos of my guns. I don't post lists of everyting of value I own. I don't tell my entire life story. I tend to be a semi-private person.
But this much I will divulge. The last 2 shots I fired into a human being were handloads. Not a factory duplicate handload either. A 148 CWBH (that's a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards) over a stout fast burning powder tailored for maxium performance from a 2" barrel. There just isn't anybodys factory load that even comes close to being similar. The only thing said to me about it was by the first arrival EMTs. They asked "Do you have any idea how many times he was shot?" I said "To the best of my knowledge twice." The first response police officer asked me quietly, after looking at the wounds, "What the hell did you shoot him with? Where can I get some?"
The subject of ammunition was never again brought up. There was no attempt at filing a civil action either.
And that's all I am going to say on that matter.
I personally know of at least six other self defense shootings involving both sworn police officers as well as private citizens, that involved handloaded ammunition. The type of ammunition was never brought up in Coroner's Inquests, Grand Jury hearings, criminal trials or civil actions.
Either you are justified in using deadly force or you are not. There is no such thing as a right to wound. There is no right to shoot someone just a little.
If you are justified in using deadly force it doesn't matter if it is a .17HMR or a .50BMG. Or a baseball bat, or a three wood, or a PR-24 or a Swiss Army knife, or a brick.
Worry about identifying the threat. Worry about being able to hit your target. Worry about not having enough gun. But NEVER, ever worry about shooting them with too much bullet. Hells Bells I'd be carrying an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator if I could.
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surfinUSA
Member
In a good shooting there should be no trial. The State Attorney should be able to determine that no charges will be filed based on the facts of the police investigation unless a grand jury inquiry is mandated in your jurisdiction. Even in a good shooting count on being sued civilly.
E=Mc, just because there wasn't a trial doesn't mean there wasn't a suit somewhere near 90% of civil cases are settled before trial. Just because they are settled doesn't mean they didn't cost somebody big money. And even if you win it will still cost you big money. Defense lawyers aren't cheap and civil cases are very expensive.
I only use factory ammo. I know it works and Federal has the time and money to do more testing than I could ever dream of. Let their experts come in an testify as to what components were used and why.
E=Mc, just because there wasn't a trial doesn't mean there wasn't a suit somewhere near 90% of civil cases are settled before trial. Just because they are settled doesn't mean they didn't cost somebody big money. And even if you win it will still cost you big money. Defense lawyers aren't cheap and civil cases are very expensive.
I only use factory ammo. I know it works and Federal has the time and money to do more testing than I could ever dream of. Let their experts come in an testify as to what components were used and why.
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