Carry Handcuffs with CCW?
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armsmaster270
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In the old days we used to cuff prisoners alone as we didn't have backup near and were in one man cars. Most of the time we got away with it due to the way people thought in those days and just dumb luck. It is not the old days any more and you don't approach unless you have backup. Tase him and wait for the 1st Cav. Then cuff.
Art Eatman
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If I make somebody carrying handcuffs on the street and he's not an LEO, I'm gonna wonder if he's really playing with a full deck. My "hinky button" gets pushed really quickly at such an idea. I see it as a sign of a really paranoid guy hunting trouble with the idea that he's big and bad enough to win.
YMMV.
YMMV.
ForumSurfer
Member
Yeah that sums it up for me.
Many agencies don't want you cuffing someone until backup arrives...and these guys are more trained than I in such matters. That is reason enough for me not to want to cuff someone all by my lonesome.
DaisyCutter
Member
I'm a cop, and I don't carry handcuffs in plainclothes off duty. I don't even carry handcuffs working off-duty.
Handcuffing someone who is resisting is very dangerous. Typically, you have to fight them until the resisting part is over, then put on the cuffs.
Additionally, a LEO can at least say they've had "training" when somebody claims they were bruied by the handcuffs, have nerve damage, etc.
Handcuffing someone who is resisting is very dangerous. Typically, you have to fight them until the resisting part is over, then put on the cuffs.
Additionally, a LEO can at least say they've had "training" when somebody claims they were bruied by the handcuffs, have nerve damage, etc.
EmGeeGeorge
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worst idea ever...
lotta good input on why its a bad idea, nothing saying its good...
why was the guy carrying cuffs? makes me suspicious.
lotta good input on why its a bad idea, nothing saying its good...
why was the guy carrying cuffs? makes me suspicious.
The police can't be everywhere and do everything. There should be a lot more personal responsibility.
Most of our problems in this country arise from so many people wanting the government to be responsible for everything in their lives.
I carry tie wraps for work almost all the time. That electrical tape and duct tape.
I seriously doubt I would ever try to be involved in cuffing somebody. But never say never.
Most of our problems in this country arise from so many people wanting the government to be responsible for everything in their lives.
I carry tie wraps for work almost all the time. That electrical tape and duct tape.
I seriously doubt I would ever try to be involved in cuffing somebody. But never say never.
Being that my armed defense is about survival and not law enforcement, I've never felt the need to carry any sort of restraints for my subdued attacker.
Chances are if your "incident" happens in a public place it was probably caught on camera somehow. So even if he leaves police will most likely know exactly what he looks like. If you do have to shoot him he will probably end up being caught in a nearby hospital. Chances are he'll get caught somehow.
It's just not worth the risk to your safety, or the risk of legal problems associated with holding someone unlawfully. The days of heroic and appreciated citizen arrests have faded away or better or worst.
Chances are if your "incident" happens in a public place it was probably caught on camera somehow. So even if he leaves police will most likely know exactly what he looks like. If you do have to shoot him he will probably end up being caught in a nearby hospital. Chances are he'll get caught somehow.
It's just not worth the risk to your safety, or the risk of legal problems associated with holding someone unlawfully. The days of heroic and appreciated citizen arrests have faded away or better or worst.
It's just not worth the risk to your safety, or the risk of legal problems associated with holding someone unlawfully. The days of heroic and appreciated citizen arrests have faded away or better or worst.
Legal problems associated with holding someone unlawfully? As opposed to the legal problems associated with having shot the person with a firearm? Trust me, if you shoot another human being, whether or not you handcuffed them afterward is going to be the least of your worries when you go to court. Also, carrying handcuffs is not impersonating a police officer in any jurisdiction in America. If you identify yourself as a Police Officer or display a badge or fake credentials, that's a different matter, but that's not what we're talking about here. Keep in mind, there are many Americans who think only the Police should have guns and that to take responsibility for your own personal safety is "holster sniffing". Something to think about.
My advice to the OP is to consult your local laws. If it is legal for you to possess handcuffs where you live (there are some places, like NYC, where the possession of handcuffs is illegal) and it is legal for you to make a citizen's arrest then I would tell you to get informed and to get trained. Know when you are permitted to make a citizen's arrest and what force you are permitted to use to effect the arrest. Above all, get trained in handcuffing just like you are (hopefully) trained in firearms handling. Take a course. Some Police and Sheriff's Departments do offer citizen police academies where private citizens receive an abbreviated course of instruction in handcuffing, OC, penal law etc. In other areas you might have to go to a school that trains security guards or another alternative private training center. The chances that you will ever have to fire your gun in self defense or in defense of another are remote but we still carry. The chances of needing to use handcuffs afterward are also remote but it is a legitimate concern.
For some in the gun rights community making a citizen's arrest is like open carry, something that's considered uncomfortable and an embarrassment to the movement. The reality, though, is that in many areas both are still perfectly legal. No one should be looked down upon, ridiculed or have a finger wagged in their face for asking.
And for the record, a number of years ago I made multiple, separate arrests for misdemeanor assault as a private citizen. It wasn't a matter of looking for trouble, I was simply walking in the area where I lived and saw different people being attacked at different times, usually by drunks or drug addicts. I was never sued and the responding officers simply thanked me, took custody of the person I arrested and went on about their business. If you look the other way when bad things happen in your community, you have no one to blame but yourself when your neighborhood becomes unlivable.
Legal problems associated with holding someone unlawfully? As opposed to the legal problems associated with having shot the person with a firearm? Trust me, if you shoot another human being, whether or not you handcuffed them afterward is going to be the least of your worries when you go to court. Also, carrying handcuffs is not impersonating a police officer in any jurisdiction in America. If you identify yourself as a Police Officer or display a badge or fake credentials, that's a different matter, but that's not what we're talking about here. Keep in mind, there are many Americans who think only the Police should have guns and that to take responsibility for your own personal safety is "holster sniffing". Something to think about.
My advice to the OP is to consult your local laws. If it is legal for you to possess handcuffs where you live (there are some places, like NYC, where the possession of handcuffs is illegal) and it is legal for you to make a citizen's arrest then I would tell you to get informed and to get trained. Know when you are permitted to make a citizen's arrest and what force you are permitted to use to effect the arrest. Above all, get trained in handcuffing just like you are (hopefully) trained in firearms handling. Take a course. Some Police and Sheriff's Departments do offer citizen police academies where private citizens receive an abbreviated course of instruction in handcuffing, OC, penal law etc. In other areas you might have to go to a school that trains security guards or another alternative private training center. The chances that you will ever have to fire your gun in self defense or in defense of another are remote but we still carry. The chances of needing to use handcuffs afterward are also remote but it is a legitimate concern.
For some in the gun rights community making a citizen's arrest is like open carry, something that's considered uncomfortable and an embarrassment to the movement. The reality, though, is that in many areas both are still perfectly legal. No one should be looked down upon, ridiculed or have a finger wagged in their face for asking.
And for the record, a number of years ago I made multiple, separate arrests for misdemeanor assault as a private citizen. It wasn't a matter of looking for trouble, I was simply walking in the area where I lived and saw different people being attacked at different times, usually by drunks or drug addicts. I was never sued and the responding officers simply thanked me, took custody of the person I arrested and went on about their business. If you look the other way when bad things happen in your community, you have no one to blame but yourself when your neighborhood becomes unlivable.
Birch Knoll
Member
It's a bad idea from a staying-alive standpoint. Do you really want to get in such close physical contact with an attacker, while armed, to handcuff him? The big advantage of a gun is that you can protect yourself from well beyond the bad guy's reach.
Handcuffing bad guys is dangerous enough for LEOs who have the advantage of training, backup and additional equipment to control the attacker.
Handcuffing bad guys is dangerous enough for LEOs who have the advantage of training, backup and additional equipment to control the attacker.
JoeCaputo
Member
I agree totally.
Just because you have a concealed weapons permit shouldn't make you conclude that you should carry handcuffs. I'm sorry but there are just to many Wan-a-be's. Law Enforcement is trained to deal with arrest situations and most CWP holders aren't. Your responsibity should be a GOOD WITNESS and not risk injury to yourself or others. People have to make decisions in emergency situations but your taking a on tramendous liability. By Washington Law you are expected to seek refuge even in your Home rather than take agressive action againt a intruder. Hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way here but over 30 years in Law Enforcement in Washington State prompts my opinion.
JoeCaputo
Member
you are indeed very lucky. You could make your observations know to the police and insist that they do their job. Your attitude could very well end up in a unwaranted tragedy
Strykervet
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Yeah, but if he makes that complaint and the DA in your district is anti, then you have to prove you didn't kidnap him. Kidnapping is defined by disallowing a person to leave.
Usually a citizen's arrest requires more than one person. You need witnesses, and the more the better.
State law really plays into this more than anything else. Here in WA, I am allowed to draw my weapon to stop a felony in progress. Our law is pretty simple, and they go by the word of it and not an interpretation of it. I didn't hear about that guy in Seattle, but it seems he didn't do anything wrong. He saw a shooting and acted within the boundaries of our law.
As to cuffing the guy, they called him a "good samaritan" in the article... But they also said that it wasn't advisable and the risk was on him. I feel in more way than one. Because he touched the guy, the guy has grounds for a civil suit. All he needs are pictures of bruises or marks on his wrists, a good lawyer to paint the defendent as a vigilante, and a jury sympathetic to the plantiff. It is also easy for a lawyer to prove that the guy has no training as to how to properly apply handcuffs. In our micromanaged society, having the chips stacked against you is easy peasy in a court.
Some people act when they see another person in distress. I am like that. However, I don't like to touch the other person unless I have to, and I'm not drawing unless the situation is just critical. Now this guy is being hung out to dry over bringing handcuffs to the ATM, but what if the guy had to be restrained and you had nothing else... Wouldn't sitting on him be worse? Also, the guy pulled up the ATM. Some people put hancuffs on their rearview mirrors, although it was more of an 80's thing, perhaps they came from there, perhaps he wasn't carrying them like a wannabe cop. Or maybe they were in the glovebox, maybe he had them as a sex thing. Who knows.
I have intervened in a violent attack in Vancouver BC when I was in the army. Three buddies and I saved this lady's life when she was thrown through a plate glass window and lost a lot of blood. Long story short, I detained him at a bus stop and cornered him, praying he wouldn't attack since he was covered in broken glass and two people's blood. If I had restraints, I wouldn't have used them here. I think they have a limited use for civilians in populated areas.
Personally, I carry 550 cord everywhere. I have a roll of it in my truck. That stuff is HANDY! That and 100mph tape and you can make or fix just about anything. So I can take a piece and tie a prusik cuff real quick if I need it. Shoot, I can tie several in minute or two. No awkward situations explaining why I'm carrying cuffs, no liability for over tightening zip ties or not having the cutter, etc. And it works great for tying down loads and tarps, which I tend to do more than put people under citizen's arrest anyway, which I've only done once and in another country at that!
I think in this situation, making the guy just lay down would be best. Pull the pistol, yell and act like a cop, he won't know the difference if you are aggressive and quick, but rendering aid to the victim seems to be of the utmost importance.
But I see the value in not letting them get away too. The guy that shot one of my army buddies at a bar in Tacoma is still on the loose. Had someone intervened, a CCW, perhaps he wouldn't still be riding the bus next to you or serving pizza to you kids at Chuckie Cheese's.
Hard call here, but I don't think toting handcuffs in a batman belt like you are a cop is a good idea. Having 550 cord or bootlaces or a belt to improvise as restraints in a dire situation is a good idea though. You just don't want to be the only one, you want witnesses and assistants too if possible.
Main reason it is dangerous to cuff someone by yourself is it is easy to be disarmed. Cops might have training, but a bigger part of it is psychological. People are less likely to counterattack and disarm a cop vs. a citizen trying to perform a citizen's arrest by theirself. Doing it alone isn't too smart in most situations.
JoeCaputo
Member
Right On
RIGHT ON
If you want to be a cop, you can complete academy training and put in the time and practice at honoring and seeking to improve at your chosen occupation. I'm retired from over 30 years in law enforcement and I do have the concealed carry status and I also have a cwp permit but I don't carry handcuffs. I for one would like to see a law that would address people carrying a badge that identifies them to be a officer wan-a-bee. I think that possession or flashing of a badge can result in false representation situations. I'm comfortable that most CWP holders are good people exercising their Constitutional Rights to be armed but their are I know for a fact CWP holders that in my opinion shouldn't have that honor.
RIGHT ON
If you want to be a cop, you can complete academy training and put in the time and practice at honoring and seeking to improve at your chosen occupation. I'm retired from over 30 years in law enforcement and I do have the concealed carry status and I also have a cwp permit but I don't carry handcuffs. I for one would like to see a law that would address people carrying a badge that identifies them to be a officer wan-a-bee. I think that possession or flashing of a badge can result in false representation situations. I'm comfortable that most CWP holders are good people exercising their Constitutional Rights to be armed but their are I know for a fact CWP holders that in my opinion shouldn't have that honor.
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Citizen Arrest opens up a huge civil suit.If your actions cause harm you can and will wish you had not done it.
The only real fight i ever got into over a crackhead punched my wife in the face when she told him 'no; she didn't have a dollar,i didn't know he was out before he hit the ground the torn up shoulder,broken arm and wrist cost me 50K.
Its ungodly what you can end up in civil court over,spare mag.No restraints.
The only real fight i ever got into over a crackhead punched my wife in the face when she told him 'no; she didn't have a dollar,i didn't know he was out before he hit the ground the torn up shoulder,broken arm and wrist cost me 50K.
Its ungodly what you can end up in civil court over,spare mag.No restraints.
barnetmill
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I see another danger from citizen arrest. You have the Bad Guy handcuffed and on the ground. You are standing over him with a drawn gun. Someone called in that a man with a gun is threatening a civilian. Cops show up and mistakenly shoot you. Not only do I most often want the bad guy to flee, I would like to flee also. There is unlikely to be any monetary gain from filling out a police report and getting interrogated. I think I would go look up a lawyer after the incident.
mgregg85
Member
Carrying handcuffs as a non-LEO sounds like a really bad idea.
If you really, positively must carry some kind of restraint then I would go with those plastic zip cuffs. I can't see a use for them but at least they will be lighter.
I imagine the kind of guy that carries handcuffs also carries one of those stupid CCW badges around.
If you really, positively must carry some kind of restraint then I would go with those plastic zip cuffs. I can't see a use for them but at least they will be lighter.
I imagine the kind of guy that carries handcuffs also carries one of those stupid CCW badges around.
you are indeed very lucky. You could make your observations know to the police and insist that they do their job. Your attitude could very well end up in a unwaranted tragedy
I didn't witness the assailants fleeing after having committed their crimes I observed them in the act of committing assault. All three were either intoxicated or high on crack. One came over the counter and assaulted a store owner because he wouldn't sell him more alcohol, another was assaulting a train rider with a liquor bottle and the third was in the process of smashing a man's head on a concrete sidewalk with the help of two other gang members. In the third case a little boy, about six years old, came around the corner screaming for help which is how I came to be involved. At the time I lived in a high crime neighborhood with a large population and very few police officers on shift at any one time . If I had not intervened no one would have and instead of coming away uninjured or only being slightly injured the victims would have been seriously hurt or killed. I was not then, nor am I comfortable now, watching someone be beaten and/or killed because there is the possibility that I will be sued or mistaken for a criminal by responding officers. I intervened with full knowledge of the risks involved and judged the risks to be acceptable to me in my particular situation. In my particular case there was virtually no chance of being mistaken for a criminal by responding officers, partially because of my clean cut appearance but mainly because the wait time for a patrolman to arrive when you called 911 was an average of twenty to forty five minutes on a busy night. In addition, I was well known in the neighborhood for doing charity work and all the police officers in my neighborhood knew me by sight.
I do not now, nor have I ever, lived in Washington State. I can't speak for Washington's laws only for those of the states in which I have lived. I also can't speak for the conditions in Washington State. You may very well have short response times and fewer serious violent crimes than where I was living at the time (a ghetto overwhelmed by gang and drug crime). Your advice may be sound for the area you worked and lived in. It would not have been sound in my neighborhood at that time. My actions were legal and necessary. If there comes a point where you have put your hands up or drawn a gun in self defense you have already committed yourself. There may come a time when you cannot simply hit your assailant and run away or fire on him and drive him off. You have to be prepared to see the confrontation through to the end. That may mean holding the person for the Police or it may not. In any event every situation is different and different people will draw different conclusions. Know your threshold for risk and act accordingly.
I didn't witness the assailants fleeing after having committed their crimes I observed them in the act of committing assault. All three were either intoxicated or high on crack. One came over the counter and assaulted a store owner because he wouldn't sell him more alcohol, another was assaulting a train rider with a liquor bottle and the third was in the process of smashing a man's head on a concrete sidewalk with the help of two other gang members. In the third case a little boy, about six years old, came around the corner screaming for help which is how I came to be involved. At the time I lived in a high crime neighborhood with a large population and very few police officers on shift at any one time . If I had not intervened no one would have and instead of coming away uninjured or only being slightly injured the victims would have been seriously hurt or killed. I was not then, nor am I comfortable now, watching someone be beaten and/or killed because there is the possibility that I will be sued or mistaken for a criminal by responding officers. I intervened with full knowledge of the risks involved and judged the risks to be acceptable to me in my particular situation. In my particular case there was virtually no chance of being mistaken for a criminal by responding officers, partially because of my clean cut appearance but mainly because the wait time for a patrolman to arrive when you called 911 was an average of twenty to forty five minutes on a busy night. In addition, I was well known in the neighborhood for doing charity work and all the police officers in my neighborhood knew me by sight.
I do not now, nor have I ever, lived in Washington State. I can't speak for Washington's laws only for those of the states in which I have lived. I also can't speak for the conditions in Washington State. You may very well have short response times and fewer serious violent crimes than where I was living at the time (a ghetto overwhelmed by gang and drug crime). Your advice may be sound for the area you worked and lived in. It would not have been sound in my neighborhood at that time. My actions were legal and necessary. If there comes a point where you have put your hands up or drawn a gun in self defense you have already committed yourself. There may come a time when you cannot simply hit your assailant and run away or fire on him and drive him off. You have to be prepared to see the confrontation through to the end. That may mean holding the person for the Police or it may not. In any event every situation is different and different people will draw different conclusions. Know your threshold for risk and act accordingly.
lemaymiami
Member
Lots of viewpoints here, most valid... None, so far, from the point of view of a street cop who comes into contact with someone who's not only armed (hopefully legally) but also carrying restraints in one form or another.... Most cops are going to draw the conclusion that they're dealing with someone who might be a serious offender... Handcuffs, zip-ties, duct tape - can you see where the thought processes are heading? I've personally been on the scene when one prowler or other was found to be carrying not only a weapon of some kind but also restraints, and usually a few other small items that every young sex offender would know about....
Many, many years ago I carried cuffs on the job as a young store detective (and on two occasions they almost got me much too close to shoplifters that really, really didn't want to be arrested...). The training I was given was non-existant for that entry level job. A few years later with proper training as a young cop I still had one or two close calls involving handcuffs and folks that really, really didn't want to go down... I don't miss that sort of stuff, since one very good cop I knew was killed while trying to cuff a guy with a little concealed .25 (that little gun put a little slug right under his armpit where the vest didn't cover him....). The shooter still comes up for parole every few years....
I'd advise anyone to avoid carrying restraints of any kind as an armed citizen.... and that's pretty good advice.....
Many, many years ago I carried cuffs on the job as a young store detective (and on two occasions they almost got me much too close to shoplifters that really, really didn't want to be arrested...). The training I was given was non-existant for that entry level job. A few years later with proper training as a young cop I still had one or two close calls involving handcuffs and folks that really, really didn't want to go down... I don't miss that sort of stuff, since one very good cop I knew was killed while trying to cuff a guy with a little concealed .25 (that little gun put a little slug right under his armpit where the vest didn't cover him....). The shooter still comes up for parole every few years....
I'd advise anyone to avoid carrying restraints of any kind as an armed citizen.... and that's pretty good advice.....
Mainsail
Member
^^^To add, many animals are considered harmless until you corner them. Even a mouse will attack a dog or cat if it's trapped. Remember that. Now consider how you would respond to someone trying to handcuff you, someone you do not believe has the authority to do so. It's very different for a cop, and it's not easy for them.
Quoted from King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart:
No one's saying that law abiding citizens shouldn't do all we can to assist law enforcement, but we cross the line if or when we try to perform law enforcement duties without the authority, training, backup and government sanctioning/liability support.
No one's saying that law abiding citizens shouldn't do all we can to assist law enforcement, but we cross the line if or when we try to perform law enforcement duties without the authority, training, backup and government sanctioning/liability support.
MisterMike
Member
Former LEO here. An insanely bad idea. Just because it worked out okay in one instance, doesn't mean that anyone else should ever do this.
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