Carrying a Less-Than-Lethal Weapon in Addition to a Firearm?

[JShirley]

There are holsters with varying levels of retention. The least retention possible with be a friction lock. Next will be a button or strap, followed by a "thumb drive" or Serpa-style lock, and so forth.

Friction- only retention will of course be defeated by just a strong pull. Buttons and straps can be configured so that your drawstroke automatically disengages the strap, but that your weapon can't be drawn without the button being opened or the entire strap brute-force ripped off. Either way should give you time to respond, but your response time won't matter much if you've already been battered senseless because you didn't feel you faced a lethal threat, and chose not to draw.

Canes carried in the non-weapon hand can be used to buy distance for a drawstroke, just as some serious weaponry students train to use the non-weapon hand to cut free from an sidearm grab. A knife may not be inherently more dangerous than a stick, but knife use will always be considered lethal force, even if the user didn't use it in a potentially lethal way.

An attacker trying to gain control of your handgun is a lethal threat. If you the defender can stop an attacker with less-lethal force such as OC spray or a cane before the attacker even knows you're carrying a firearm, that's much preferable.

 

[Sam1911]

Wow, very thoughtful responses! Thanks!

Now, I know it's all a slippery gray sloped area () but I'd still like to try to put some realistic boundaries on it. Realizing that the law is different in every state, can we say anything definitive?

For example, John suggests that you could spray or Tase someone for making threats (of course you'd want to be able to articulate why you reasonably believed they could carry out those threats). So what kind of threat? ("I'm gonna punch you!" vs. "I'm gonna STAB you!"?) Weapon visible, vs. no weapon visible? Disparity of force?

How do you establish when you're facing grievous injury, but NOT death? (This seems a mighty difficult call to make accurately.)

What is the bottom threshold of this range? hso mentions getting punched in the nose. Reasonable to use LTL force to prevent that? Or prevent more if you've already been hit? NOT reasonable to draw/present a firearm (with the possibility of shooting) to prevent that?

(FWIW, drawing and presenting/brandishing a firearm would be considered "force" in some states so a firearm can have its own psychological less lethal application.)

-Sam

 

[glistam]

Oh it get's worse Sam, when the cops arrive and it dawns on you that nobody but you and the BG know what happened. Worse, that only his friends saw what happened and your side of the story is all alone. Even if you did everything right in accordance with the laws/case law of your state, does the physical evidence at the scene help you or make you look bad? Are you believable to the police? More believable than him or his pals? What if they all lie and have a consistent story because they worked it out before the cops arrived. What if some neutral witnesses are morons and only remember parts of what happened. Do they remember the guy being a threat, or do all they remember is tunnel vision on a gun?

 

[hso]

Those discussions involving firearms and attacks often take place in S&T and General from time to time. We've had a few here as well where the right mindset and skill set allowed men and women in our community to prevent or stop an assault (Heck, Springmom used the cane I made for her and the brief training on a visit with me to "convince" 2 young toughs that she was not a suitable target for a mugging. Her mindset and the obvious show of determination and unexpected skill surprised them and disrupted their script so that they decided they needed to be somewhere else).

Using a stick or knife or spray to prevent/stop/end a fight does and has happened to our members. It is obvious that you don't want to end up rolling around on the ground in an assault. Not only for the obvious reason that hitting the ground can injure you or the concern about loosing control of a firearm, but because the attacker may have pals that will happily stomp or kick you while you're tied up with your attacker. Our goal is to avoid this worse case.

The point we drive home is that we need to do everything possible to keep from letting any interaction from becoming physical. Leave a questionable place when you see it is possibly unsafe even if you're having fun or foolish friends won't. Deescalate any confrontation that you failed to avoid so it doesn't become physical. Withdraw and get out to a safe(r) place. If that means "tucking tail" to get safe then it is certainly preferable to risking a debilitating injury due to an assault instead of letting foolish ego get in your way. Even if you've failed at all the previous steps and it means just getting into advantageous "terrain" for the unavoidable assault, keep your head and do that so you can end the situation quickly. Having several injuries that have been repaired and some that healed on their own due to a very active/clumsy life I can personally attest to the fact that IT AIN'T WORTH IT to get into any physical confrontation that can be avoided. That said, I assure you that without the training I've had my injuries from the few violent encounters I have had would have been much worse.

There are confrontations that are bluster and posturing and there are those that are wind ups to an attack. Any verbal confrontation should be considered serious enough to get out of the area right away since you can't always tell the "monkey display" from the spin up for an attack. I won't stay where there's such a display taking place whether it is directed at me or someone else (only BTDT twice) UNLESS there's an overwhelming disparity of "US" vs. "THEM" and then it is foolish not to leave as soon as possible. Nasty illustration - A buddy of mine who is an accomplished and very experienced martial artist and fighter had a good friend killed and almost died himself after leaving a bar where an argument broke out and some pushing and shoving occurred between his pal and another guy. The bad guy, for want of a better term, and his partner were outnumbered and left with threats and my pal and the others thought that was the end of it and continued to enjoy the evening of karaoke with the others. As they left the bar the bad guy and his buddy ambushed my pal and his friend coming out the door of the establishment. The guy who had gotten into the confrontation slashed the throat of the young man that had gotten into the shoving/shouting match and his buddy slashed the arm of my pal as he caught the movement at the last instant. The murderers took off leaving the young man to bleed out while my pal tried to staunch the spurting wound in his friend's neck. It wasn't until my buddy started to get weak that he realized he'd been cut as well and that he was bleeding to death while he was trying to save his friend. Luckily, and obviously, others heard the calls for help and they were able to save my buddy. If they'd have called it an evening and left as soon as possible they could have probably avoided the attack or been concerned about the possibility of the BGs lingering.

 

[bikerdoc]

More and more this is becoming a profound subject to me. Thanks for the input.

Kynoch,
I appluad your "ah hah" moment.Thinking planning, training and mindset are essential.
The more tools in the tool box, either mental or physical, the better equipt you are.

For me, at my age, situational awareness, with ADEE is premier.

On the force continuun, if unable to walk away, ( I dont run anymore) or even better dont go in the first place, my mind set and training is such that I ignore,>descalate
( sorry, or not today works well) > use harsh words, ( I am good at convinving you I am not a soft target, and not worth the effort)

Depending on the threat, I am well versed in cane, OC, and gun.

I rarely have gone beyond harsh word, thank god, and attribute it to situational awareness coupled with a mind set that projects a "not Worth the effort image"
YMMV
Keep learning, thinking, and growing my friend.

 

[Kynoch]

Kynoch,
I appluad your "ah hah" moment.Thinking planning, training and mindset are essential.
The more tools in the tool box, either mental or physical, the better equipt you are.

For me, at my age, situational awareness, with ADEE is premier.

On the force continuun, if unable to walk away, ( I dont run anymore) or even better dont go in the first place, my mind set and training is such that I ignore,>descalate
( sorry, or not today works well) > use harsh words, ( I am good at convinving you I am not a soft target, and not worth the effort)

Depending on the threat, I am well versed in cane, OC, and gun.

I rarely have gone beyond harsh word, thank god, and attribute it to situational awareness coupled with a mind set that projects a "not Worth the effort image"
YMMV
Keep learning, thinking, and growing my friend.

I appreciate your comments. Thank you. The more I learn the more appalled I am with information I have read/heard elsewhere ridiculing those who think in terms of defense "systems" and not merely a firearm.

 

[JShirley]

By the way, it should probably be mentioned that any defensive tool with the potential to stop an attack has the potential to kill. Even OC spray. The weapons in question are less lethal, not less than lethal. Yes, even that baton blow to the "green zone" arm could, in rare circumstances, kill.

John

 

[Rexster]

Regarding hso's final paragraph in post #29, I must add loud AMEN! As a working street LEO, I see such scenarios occur. All too often, if one stays, there will be a subsequent ambush waiting outside, or the other party will return with weapons and/or in greater numbers, and walk right back inside to continue the unfinished business. If a confrontation has occurred, exfil as soon as practicable, and try to find another watering hole for the future.

 

[Owen Sparks]

All things being equal, It would look a lot better in court if you hit an attacker on the forearm and knee with a walking cane rather than putting two 230 grain hollowpoints through his torso, especially if he was unarmed.

 

[Rexster]

By the way, it should probably be mentioned that any defensive tool with the potential to stop an attack has the potential to kill. Even OC spray. The weapons in question are less lethal, not less than lethal. Yes, even that baton blow to the "green zone" arm could, in rare circumstances, kill.

John

True! Or, as has happened many time with my fellow LEOs, the bad guy ducks from what he thinks will be a head strike, and the defender's intended strike to the arms inflicts a head injury. By definition, a head strike IS deadly force.

The above has not happened yet to me, perhaps largely because a bad shoulder prevents me from making forceful overhead movements, so my baton strikes are more lateral, so bad guys do not flinch downward. (It is not like I have many baton strikes to my credit; kind words have usually worked well enough. It is
interesting how the presence of weapons enhances the effect of kind words.)

 

[Fiv3r]

I'm of the mindset that having as many familiar tools in your self defense tool box that you can fit is a good thing.

Case in point: I carry a pistol nearly daily. I also have on my person a pocket knife and multitool. The pistol has never been needed, thankfully. The knife and tool are utility pieces for work. However, the gun (obviously) is a self defense tool and the knife that I carry is usually selected to be both fast to deploy with a sound lock up for defensive work.

That being said, part of my job requires me to go down town to pull building permits. Said permits are located in a government building with metal detectors requiring you to go to such lengths as removing your belt in order to get inside. What I am left with is a several block walk (parking is terrible) in a rougher part of town without my weapon set. It's amazing how naked you feel without your pocket knife

I have since begun carrying and familiarizing myself with a heavy duty steel pen and a very bland flashlight with a bezel aggressive enough to strike with yet not "tactical cookie-cutter" in nature. Neither of these items are even remotely marketed as self defense gear. I purchased the pen for $8 at Office Depot once I verified that was both soundly constructed and offered good grip purchase. The flashlight is an LED AA cheapy that I bought at Target for about 17 dollars. The brightness of the light is a moot point as it is a general utility tool for work, but I like having a back up striking tool.

Working on basic strikes, blocks, and escapes, I feel a bit better walking around in a higher risk area "unarmed". Furthermore, the police officers at the entrance have never even raised an eyebrow at my EDC items. A contractor with a smartphone, a belt, a wallet, a "nice pen", and a small flashlight does not raise any flags. Both of these items are useful as I use the light nearly daily to inspect pumps and having a heavy pen on my person means I won't be as apt to misplace it when I need to sign a check.

 

[hso]

If the OP reads NFW a bit he'll find people carrying flashlights that also make great striking tools, heavy ballpoint pens that make great pressure point and striking tools, canes, heavy rigid water bottles, knives, sprays, etc.

Knowing how to use them defensively makes for some interesting training, but knowing how to avoid and extract yourself from a confrontation so it doesn't turn violent is as important. Having the mindset and confidence to use them can help keep you from having to (see my comment about grandmotherly Springmom and the "youts").

 

[Kynoch]

Regarding hso's final paragraph in post #29, I must add loud AMEN! As a working street LEO, I see such scenarios occur. All too often, if one stays, there will be a subsequent ambush waiting outside, or the other party will return with weapons and/or in greater numbers, and walk right back inside to continue the unfinished business. If a confrontation has occurred, exfil as soon as practicable, and try to find another watering hole for the future.

Bugging-out is always choice #1...

 

[Lawdawg45]

Answering the OP's question, here is an interesting thought. After the Colorado theater shooting, this forum and others was buzzing with discussions about storing the micro pocket guns and switching to full size, high capacity semi auto's with spare magazines, but a post event evaluation showed the most effective weapon against the shooter (wearing body armor) would have been a fixed blade knife through the vest.

LD

 

[Fiv3r]

Answering the OP's question, here is an interesting thought. After the Colorado theater shooting, this forum and others was buzzing with discussions about storing the micro pocket guns and switching to full size, high capacity semi auto's with spare magazines, but a post event evaluation showed the most effective weapon against the shooter (wearing body armor) would have been a fixed blade knife through the vest.

LD

Not to get off topic, but I thought the whole "bulletproof vest" was proven to be media hype? I was under the impression that he was actually just wearing a ballistic "tactical vest" or at most surplus "riot gear". I figured a few rounds of quality .380 would have at least shut him down enough to stop firing.

However, to stay on point, yes I think a different tool set to augment your primary is never a bad idea if you can fit it into your daily carry. If the shooter was wearing actual armor and if one did have the opportunity and presence of mind, I would think even a 3.5" folding blade could make a difference. Even armored up, there are lots of soft spots.

That said, I might have shot back, but I don't think I would have had the sand to flank a guy wielding an AR with my knife

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The more tools you have the better off you are.
I use the High Road to learn mostly to expand weapon #1 my mind.
I have to have a pen, flashlite pocket knife and cane. I work with them daily in my life.
I love having options pepper spray and a 38 for more serious business.
Everything I have can be used if needed to kill but a prepare cause the wolves are alway out there.

 

[Ogreon]

Only a fool draws their firearm to "scare" someone away without the intent to shoot them if they do not back down.

I heard a woman on the radio once...

She kept an unloaded firearm with which to scare anyone who broke in. She believed that shooting was wrong. If the evildoer did not run from the gun, she would use her katana. Why was it okay to kill someone with a large piece of steel rather than a small piece of lead? She didn't say.

 

[Kynoch]

I heard a woman on the radio once...

She kept an unloaded firearm with which to scare anyone who broke in. She believed that shooting was wrong. If the evildoer did not run from the gun, she would use her katana. Why was it okay to kill someone with a large piece of steel rather than a small piece of lead? She didn't say.

Someone should have pointed that out to her. They should have also pointed out that it's foolish to bring a katana to a gun fight...

 

[hso]

Kynoch,

The "knife to a gunfight" meme doesn't work very well here since within a certain range and conditions a knife is on par and perhaps better than a firearm defensively. Those conditions are where the attack is close and fast, but within those constraints we have people here who can explain how the gun isn't the solution to every defensive problem.

 

[CWL]

Great discussion, and I emphasize "discussion"!

In addition to firearm, pepperspray, cane/umbrella, knife (horrors!), let me remind everyone that a good flashlight with a high output bulb is very useful as well.

It can both startle/blind an aggressor as well as make a good fist load. It can also help your risk assessment by identifying the target.

 

[Owen Sparks]

All weapons and tactics are compromises and each has its optimum range.

There is a distance where a sniper rifle would be no use against an unarmed wrestler and a distance where your highly tuned custom 1911 would be no use against a sniper rifle. A knife can beat all three but only within a narrow window of oppertunity. It is sort of like the childrens game of rocks, paper and scissors. The best general compromise is usually a medium length rifle, knife or stick.

 

[Kynoch]

Kynoch,

The "knife to a gunfight" meme doesn't work very well here since within a certain range and conditions a knife is on par and perhaps better than a firearm defensively. Those conditions are where the attack is close and fast, but within those constraints we have people here who can explain how the gun isn't the solution to every defensive problem.

It was an attempt at levity.

 

[hso]

It was an attempt at levity

Sorry, we hear it so much we've become a little humorless about it.

 

[zorro45]

To Fiv3r,
Nothing like a nice big framing hammer in a belt holder to complete the contractor "ensemble" while pulling building permits.

 

[hso]

nice big framing hammer in a belt holder to complete the contractor

Too "Village People" unless you're actually on a construction site.