Cartridge OAL variations using a LEE Turret 4-holer

[1SOW]

I've just started reloading and have one problem---maybe.
I use the Lee cheapie turret press with 4 carbide dies.

I tweak and tweak again toget my 9mm OAL exactly where I want it-- 1.111 .
I load the first ten rounds its 1.111 +/- .ooo5 ish. Good to go.

(I'm using sorted range brass, these 400 were all Winchester.)

Suddenly I've got a few at 1.135 or 1.108, then it usually comes back close to 1.111. It usually goes to a longer OAL for a few in a row. I checked the primer seats and they were good. I checked the digital vernier and it was consistent among the mixed sizes. I'm measuring just after seating the bullet, but the FL last die doesn't change the OAL.

I've even readjusted to get it JUuust where I want it , then after several good ones it'll go back the other way.

The die nut is snug. I do notice the turret 'flexes' UP when I seat the bullet, but if it's the same every time it shouldn't matter.

Am I being too picky, or is there something else causing my :banghead:

Thanks in advance, and I'm trying my best to limit questions to one/week.

 

[keano44]

I notice the same problem with my older Lee three-hole turret. I'm interested to see what some more experienced reloaders may say about this problem.

 

[RandyP]

In addition to slight variances in brass, there is the strong possibility that bullets will not "always' be the exact same length/weight. I have measured some of my plated bullets prior to reloading and there is an ever so slight variance.

A thousandth here and a thousandth there and bingo, you could have a range of finished rounds from the same session and die setting?

Just a thunk.

 

[lgbloader]

there is the strong possibility that bullets will not "always' be the exact same length

This could be the culprit. Also, and don't take this the wrong way but, you could get a variance if your pull of the handle is not consistant.

LGB.

 

[Walkalong]

There was another thread with the same question not long agao. Posters suggested he get rid of the O Ring and use a regular lock ring he could lock down, such as the Hornady split lock ring. It solved his problem.

 

[RandyP]

I would also suggest (only a suggestion as I am a rookie reloader and guessing-lol) that if like me you only reload to the mid power range and below, as long as your OAL falls between the specified min and SAMMI max, you probably have a "safe & functional" round of ammunition? It may not be the most consistently accurate if your OAL varies a "bit" but it will still safely go bang and punch a hole in paper?

I stand ready to be corrected by the reloading pros out there.

 

[1SOW]

Have 1060, don't want to go below 125 power factor at 1.16 it does

In my test loads: I used 1.164 with this load and got 990 fps---too slow
With the same load but 1.11 OAL, I got 1060 (load listed min was 1.08)

Relative to pull firmness:
You should be able to adjust the seating depth to a "STOP". If you pull harder it shouldn't have any effect.

RandyP: Relative to brass thickness: It should have no effect on OAL, just seating depth. The oal come from the shell holder to the die push point.

Bullet length could effect OAL becase the die doesn't push from the tip of the bullet. Shorten the tip and the die will push from the same point and you'll have a shorter OAL---like with a hollow or flat-nose. That would be quite a variance--I've gotten as much as .004


I did notice that I could pull 'softer' and get slightly less seating depth. When I got oversize OALs I tried pulling harder and it had no effect at all. I had to readjust the die seating depth slightly to fix it. Then had to change it back after awhile.

Walkalong: That sounds reasonable, I'll try it.

 

[jfh]

Since you've just started reloading, you may still be learning to tweak your die setup. Make sure your setup 1) has the #1/resizer die set correctly, and that 2) the balance of the dies heights are correctly 'keyed' off that initial setting. The Lee videos show that well, IMO.

I also wouldn't dismiss dirt / junk in the #3/seater die--try cleaning it out with degreaser, etc.--use cotton swabs and / or disassembly. Then reset the die and try running about ten cases through the process without crimping. That is, test your die setup to see if the consistent LOA is there.

Jim H.

 

[1SOW]

jfh: Thanks, I did try to follow all the Lee videos , instructions and LEE reloading manual. The dies were brand new when this probllem came up.

RandyP: The simplest idea was the best! I just recieved 2K rounds of Precision delta 124 FMJs and decided to measure the Wins and the PDs for comparison.

Those expensive Winchester FMJs HAVE as much as .004+ variation in length. I thought of this but didn't believe it could vary that MUCH.

The PDs are about .003 shorter than the Wins but have less variation in length and a slightly flatter nose--- about.0025 variation in a dozen I checked.
So when I load these, my new OAL should be about 1.1 -)

Thanks RandyP and all for the good feedback.
I will be more skeptical in the future.

 

[Steve C]

there is the strong possibility that bullets will not "always' be the exact same length/weight.

While bullet length has nothing to do with cartridge OAL as that' is set from the top of the bullet and a longer or shorter bullet will just be seated slightly deeper or shallower but still at the same OAL. The problem could be the bullet nose shape and how it fits in the seating stem. There can be enough variation in shape of the bullet nose so that if you are using a seating stem that doesn't fit the bullet type perfectly, how far in or out the bullet will seat can change. A soft bullet tip can deform during seating, esp. on a tight case enough to change OAL, again if it doesn't fit the seating stem perfectly.

A little variation of OAL isn't really a problem. Measure several rounds of factory ammo out of the same box and you will see qite a bit of variation too.

 

[1SOW]

Thanks Steve. The question is where is the bullet variation , tip or ogive. I opened the case mouths enough to just sit the bullet in and hold it. I don't think it's too tight. Any looser and I could seat it with my hands. If the bullet is shorter, that 124 grs has to be located somewhere...

I was surprised when a few thousandths changed speed as much as it did in my test loads. 9mms are very sensitive to bullet seating depth.

You're right , they should meet power factor and be good to go, but I was trying to be as close as possible with reloader. I guess I sometimes wear both a belt and suspenders.

Thank you all for your patience.

 

[RidgwayCO]

In my experience, custom bullet seating plugs machined to match the bullet you're trying to seat will minimize the differences in COL from round to round. I've had RCBS make several for me over the years for bullets I've "stocked up" on. They make tweaking the COL of a favorite bullet much more repeatable and satisfying.

Both RCBS and Lee offer to make custom bullet seater plugs for a nominal fee. Check their web sites for more info.

Call RCBS at 800-533-5000 or Lee at 262-673-3075 for pricing info.

 

[1SOW]

RidgwayCO

I learn something new every trip to the forum
I guess that's not too hard when you know so little.


I'm going to switch to PD 124 FMJ and Vit N320 after this pound of Win 231 is gone. I'll keep your suggestion in mind after I find that perfect load.

Thanks


P.S. Do you send them a few bullets to match?? In my case it will be Precisiondelta....so far.

 

[SSN Vet]

imho...

holding +/- .002 or better will only be possible with top quality jacketed bullets.

bulk bullets and the like will vary in the contour of the ogive.....

look at the insert in your seating die.... it has a cupped shape to it and contacts the bullet around the perimeter.

Change the ogive of the bullet, even slightly and the distance from that circle of contact to the tip will change.

Hence OAL will change....

whenever I struggle with seating depth, the bullet has always proved to be the culprit

 

[RidgwayCO]

Yes, to have them make a custom bullet seater plug, you have to send them a couple of bullets to use (which they will return to you) along with your payment.

I just had RCBS make up a custom bullet seater plug for the Speer 200gr GDHP bullet (designed for the .44 Special). Interestingly, they have bullet seater plugs already in stock for some gold dot bullets, but not the .44 cal 200gr version.

 

[Walkalong]

Just thought I would throw this in for something to think about. What matters for pressure is how deep the base of the bullet is in the case. With bullets that vary in length, that will vary. We can't tell how much by measuring O.A.L.

D***, something else to worry about.

Stop worrying. + or - .005 is not real good, but nothing to get upset about either. You should be able to get it to + or - .003 with better bullets or a better fit with the seater plug, or using a flat seater plug. There will always be slight differences in seating depth and room in the case with a seated bullet. If they are accurate, who cares, especially if they have good ES & SD numbers as well. So.... stop worrying.

 

[RustyFN]

I don't know if the handle operation makes a difference or not. I load on a CT and this is how I load. When seating the bullet I have a smooth stroke and don't slow down at the end. I let the end of the press operation stop my stroke. Every round that has been tested with four calibers have all been within .003 of the OAL I have set them for. I have used cheap bullets, plated, FMJ and pull downs and the same results with all of them. Hope this helps.
Rusty

 

[1SOW]

Rusty:

I agree with your technique on the handle.

I did do a rough test and found if I smoothly brought it to the stop with a slight sound of hitting the stop, it was fairly consistent. If I tried to ease it to the stop, some came out long. If I ran the long ones again they seated deeper.

Walkalong:

I'm not really worrying. I know they all fall safely within published load data and give speeds I'm ok with

I'm mainly learning for the first time what I and the equipment can do.
Except for the back ache, I really enjoyed building this 500 rds. The proof will be in the pudding at this weekend's league shoot.

RidgewayCO:

Thanks for the info. Once I'm settled on 'THE' combination, I'll probably see what LEE offers.

 

[Walkalong]

Sounds like you have a great approach. Being careful without being paranoid will take you a long way.

 

[1SOW]

Well I shot my much talked about loads in this week's league competition.

Several of the other shooters commented that this was the best round they'd ever seen me shoot, and for one of the rare times I beat my son . I didn't feel fast (it was), I just felt smooth. It was great!

The reloads did make a difference. They fed reliably and had noticeably less recoil/flip than the one's I'd been shooting.

Much of your advice helped make my day.

Thank you

Don

CLOSE THREAD 'til the next time

 

[RustyFN]

Congrats, sounds like a great day.
Rusty