243winxb
Member
Balance beam scales have a built in error of 1/10 gr. So the weight is meaningless i think? There may have been more dirt inside the LC case also.
Case Cleaning
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depends on how you measure accuracy
If the scale ways the same object and returns results at an average +/- .1 grain then you are correct.
My suspicion is that they are claiming the scales reading are within .1 grain of the true weight, then the conclusions are correct. i.e. reusing the same scale on the brass will return weight loss relative to that scales earlier reading. Hmmm, this stuff is described better in my head
.
Also, I don't think the answer is always black and white. You might corrode metal at such a slow rate that the damage is minimal, less than actual firing of the rounds or other factors. This is why chemical concentrations and exposure timings are important. This is a trick that some use, state an actual fact, but overstate the importance. Imagine some tunnel builder stating that wind and rain erodes our highways, so we need to incase all highways in tunnels. He's right. He's also: trying to make a buck, Not telling you how long a road could survive without a tunnel (for cost break even analysis), Not telling you that normal useage is 1000x's more damaging than wind/rain, tunnel encased roads are more accident prone, are terrorist targets .... etc. A VERY LONG winded way of stating that things are NEVER simple ... in my world
YMMV
If the scale ways the same object and returns results at an average +/- .1 grain then you are correct.
My suspicion is that they are claiming the scales reading are within .1 grain of the true weight, then the conclusions are correct. i.e. reusing the same scale on the brass will return weight loss relative to that scales earlier reading. Hmmm, this stuff is described better in my head
.Also, I don't think the answer is always black and white. You might corrode metal at such a slow rate that the damage is minimal, less than actual firing of the rounds or other factors. This is why chemical concentrations and exposure timings are important. This is a trick that some use, state an actual fact, but overstate the importance. Imagine some tunnel builder stating that wind and rain erodes our highways, so we need to incase all highways in tunnels. He's right. He's also: trying to make a buck, Not telling you how long a road could survive without a tunnel (for cost break even analysis), Not telling you that normal useage is 1000x's more damaging than wind/rain, tunnel encased roads are more accident prone, are terrorist targets .... etc. A VERY LONG winded way of stating that things are NEVER simple ... in my world
YMMV
243winxb
Member
weight and time
akanotken, I should have said, the scale should read out to a finer measurement, say .001 instead of .1 Also the time the brass is in the mix is most important as you have said. What concerns me most is, when does the chemical reaction stop effecting the brass? Some would say water will not stop the reaction? Baking soda or citrus acid will?
akanotken, I should have said, the scale should read out to a finer measurement, say .001 instead of .1 Also the time the brass is in the mix is most important as you have said. What concerns me most is, when does the chemical reaction stop effecting the brass? Some would say water will not stop the reaction? Baking soda or citrus acid will?
243winxb
Member
Is ammonia formed with combustion of powder?
Is it possible that ammonia is formed on firing? The residue left behind on the inside of some brass necks seems to turn green after a while. This would indicate to me that a chemical reaction is taking place. When ammo is put into storage (20years) after reloading this might cause "stress corrosion". Even when cleaning the necks with a brush/lube, the part on the shoulder is not touched. Could this be where the corrosion would be working on my cases?
Is it possible that ammonia is formed on firing?
The residue left behind on the inside of some brass necks seems to turn green after a while. This would indicate to me that a chemical reaction is taking place. When ammo is put into storage (20years) after reloading this might cause "stress corrosion". Even when cleaning the necks with a brush/lube, the part on the shoulder is not touched. Could this be where the corrosion would be working on my cases?
243winxb
Member
Are Homemade Liquid Brass Cleaners Safe - My Conclusion is ............
This recipe for a liquid brass cleaner should be safe. I feel that this recipe containing 1 pint water, 1 cup white vinegar, 1 tablespoon salt, 1 tea spoon detergent will not hurt brass when washed for 10 minutes then rinsed for 10 minutes in mild ascorbic acid (juice from 1 lemon to 1qt water) and sun dried. Firearm brass has many names,( Admiralty Brass, Copper alloy 260 or 70% Copper & 30% zinc, with tiny amounts of tin and arsenic. The acetic acid in vinegar will not harm brass alloy of this type. Admiralty brass is used for centrifugal pumps handling 20%-100% acetic acid at 20oC. http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass73.htm We have learned that ammonia, in any form should never come in contact with brass as "stress corrosion" caused by the ammonia will weaken brass and cause it to crack. "Stress corrosion cracking occurs under the simultaneous conditions of tensile stress and the corroding medium. When you cold work the brass by neck expanding or belling, a residual stress remains in the brass. Also, when the case is fired, the diameter expands to fill the chamber and this causes tensile stress due to stretching."
. One question still needs to be answered. Is ammonia formed/created with combustion of smokeless powder?
This recipe for a liquid brass cleaner should be safe. I feel that this recipe containing 1 pint water, 1 cup white vinegar, 1 tablespoon salt, 1 tea spoon detergent will not hurt brass when washed for 10 minutes then rinsed for 10 minutes in mild ascorbic acid (juice from 1 lemon to 1qt water) and sun dried. Firearm brass has many names,( Admiralty Brass, Copper alloy 260 or 70% Copper & 30% zinc, with tiny amounts of tin and arsenic. The acetic acid in vinegar will not harm brass alloy of this type. Admiralty brass is used for centrifugal pumps handling 20%-100% acetic acid at 20oC. http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass73.htm We have learned that ammonia, in any form should never come in contact with brass as "stress corrosion" caused by the ammonia will weaken brass and cause it to crack. "Stress corrosion cracking occurs under the simultaneous conditions of tensile stress and the corroding medium. When you cold work the brass by neck expanding or belling, a residual stress remains in the brass. Also, when the case is fired, the diameter expands to fill the chamber and this causes tensile stress due to stretching."
. One question still needs to be answered. Is ammonia formed/created with combustion of smokeless powder?
Tumbling and Lead Poisoning -- What do you all do?
Hello everyone,
I am a new reloader and have begun reading threads/stories about the negatives of using a reloading vibratory cleaner to clean brass with, due to the issues of possible lead poisioning. For those of you who do use a vibratory cleaner, do you use it outside or in the garage with the doors open? I currently have a Dillon tumbler and have used it once in the basement to clean cases, but I am thinking I am making a mistake based on the threads I have read about lead poisoning.
Thank you for your time.
Best Regards,
Mike
Hello everyone,
I am a new reloader and have begun reading threads/stories about the negatives of using a reloading vibratory cleaner to clean brass with, due to the issues of possible lead poisioning. For those of you who do use a vibratory cleaner, do you use it outside or in the garage with the doors open? I currently have a Dillon tumbler and have used it once in the basement to clean cases, but I am thinking I am making a mistake based on the threads I have read about lead poisoning.
Thank you for your time.
Best Regards,
Mike
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jcwit
member
I tumble my cases to clean them, I cast my own my own bullets, I handle the bullets to lube them and to load cartridges. Been doing this for 40 years.
That said I get tested every 6 months with my regulator check-up, and have no problems with lead levels.
That said I get tested every 6 months with my regulator check-up, and have no problems with lead levels.
snuffy
Member
The issue with the tumbler and lead is the lead styphonate that is in the primer compound. It is inside the fired casing and the primer pocket. The tumbler media has some of it in with it in the form of dust. The styphonate is absorbed only by ingestion, which includes breathing in the dust. It can then enter your bloodstream.
Avoid the dust when taking the tumbled cases out of the media either by individually picking them out or using some sort of separator/sieve. It's best if you have a young family or are thinking of starting one, to keep lead away from them.
I wear a dust mask while separating cases from the media. Since I live alone, and have no younguns around, I don't try to keep the tumbling area clean.
243winxb
Member
Is ammonia formed/created with combustion of smokeless powder?
The Thread can be found here. Post number 21 http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58344
243winxb
Member
acetic acid (vinegar)
My brass looks like it has Stress corrosion cracking. Having never knowingly used ammonia for cleaning, then i would have to quess that the brass was damaged by the NRA mix? But Admiralty Brass containing 70% copper & 29% zinc + 1% tin and arsenic is resistent to acetic acid. Copper alloy 260(rifle brass) is made of 70% Copper & 30% zinc with small % of tin & arsenic if my internet search is correct? Maybe the brass just died of old age. This brass may have been from a batch that was left soak in the NRA mix overnight by mistake.
My brass looks like it has Stress corrosion cracking. Having never knowingly used ammonia for cleaning, then i would have to quess that the brass was damaged by the NRA mix? But Admiralty Brass containing 70% copper & 29% zinc + 1% tin and arsenic is resistent to acetic acid. Copper alloy 260(rifle brass) is made of 70% Copper & 30% zinc with small % of tin & arsenic if my internet search is correct? Maybe the brass just died of old age. This brass may have been from a batch that was left soak in the NRA mix overnight by mistake.
gmerkt
Member
I know this is a long thread but I've got a question resulting from reading it.
I have a tumbler, but I also use Birchwood-Casey liquid case cleaner quite a bit. It's a mild solution of phosphoric acid. I know this is used in the industry; Sierra Bullets uses phosphoric acid as a wash stage in their bullet jackets. I don't mind the dry time; in reloading I never try to hurry anything up.
My question is about the pink or rose color that some tarnished brass takes on after cleaning. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread. Typically, cases that have lain out in the desert exposed to the elements take on a brown color, and after cleaning with phosphoric acid, they are the pink color. Someone also mentioned ammonia occuring in nature (like lying out on the ground for extended periods?). Does the pink color indicate that zinc has been leached out of the brass, and therefore, should these cases not be used?
I have a tumbler, but I also use Birchwood-Casey liquid case cleaner quite a bit. It's a mild solution of phosphoric acid. I know this is used in the industry; Sierra Bullets uses phosphoric acid as a wash stage in their bullet jackets. I don't mind the dry time; in reloading I never try to hurry anything up.
My question is about the pink or rose color that some tarnished brass takes on after cleaning. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread. Typically, cases that have lain out in the desert exposed to the elements take on a brown color, and after cleaning with phosphoric acid, they are the pink color. Someone also mentioned ammonia occuring in nature (like lying out on the ground for extended periods?). Does the pink color indicate that zinc has been leached out of the brass, and therefore, should these cases not be used?
A word to the wise -- don't forget about your brass.
I dropped my fired brass into jug with a half-gallon of water with a maybe a 1/4 cup of baking soda and a tablespoon or so of dish detergent... forgot about it for a few days. Then rinsed and filled with a half-gallon of water and about 1 cup of vinegar and a tablespoon or so of dish detergent... forgot about it for again for a few days.
The result: spoiled brass. Ruined about 500rnds. Don't let it happen to you.
I dropped my fired brass into jug with a half-gallon of water with a maybe a 1/4 cup of baking soda and a tablespoon or so of dish detergent... forgot about it for a few days. Then rinsed and filled with a half-gallon of water and about 1 cup of vinegar and a tablespoon or so of dish detergent... forgot about it for again for a few days.
The result: spoiled brass. Ruined about 500rnds. Don't let it happen to you.
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qajaq59
Member
I guess I'm doing it the lazy way. When I get home from the range I simply toss the brass in a tumbler (which tumbles not shakes) with crushed walnut and a little car polish and go about my business. Eventually I remember it is in there and take it out. All nice and clean.
243winxb
Member
The pink or rose color is a sign that something in the alloy has changed,
is my guess. Ammonia in nature happens when you have moisture and vegetation rotting, this attacks the brass. Metallurgist confirms that ammonia makes brass brittle over time. The acid in vinegar will cause Dezincification of firearms brass that is made up of 70% copper & 30% zinc. This makes the brass dark over time as the reaction from the acid never stops working. It would seem to weaken the brass over time. My brass/loaded ammo has been in storage for many years 1993 or longer, GI metal ammo can, temerature between 60-70 degress. Another lot# loaded in 1997 is like new, bright and shiney, but was never in the NRA vinegar cleaning mix. The time element seems to be the biggest factor? I now use All free and clear laundry detergent to wash, then rinse with 1qt water with lemon juice. Is All safe? No more vinegar mixes for me. Tumbling seems to be a much safer method, no chemicals. IMO
243winxb
Member
Follow link here > http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass75.htm Note that gun brass is 70%copper/30% zinc.
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Why not just tumble? No offense, but it's idiot proof. Just shake the corn cob out as best you can, deprime, and you're set. My corncob seems to last many tumblings and handles all handgun calibers in maybe an hour or, depending on how much I stuff in the bowl. Rifle cartridges require a little more care, but I don't have as many in the hopper at the same time.
I'm going the stainless media route -- No acid involved. There are some pics and vids on at the following thread if you are interested:
media for tumbling
media for tumbling
twice barrel
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Dannix,
I looked at your pics and didn't note anything wrong with that brass. Why do you feel its ruined?
TB
I looked at your pics and didn't note anything wrong with that brass. Why do you feel its ruined?
TB
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