Case seperation in .45 Colt

[Oyeboten]

After staying a while with Black Powder for Metallic Cartridge Revolver, last night I loaded a handful of rounds with 'Unique'.


Among the several Re-Loading Manuals I have, none referenced a Lead Bullet of 230 Grain weight, and, the only reference I found which was close, was for a 237 Grain Lead, and, a charge spread for Unique running from 8.0 'starting' and 10.7 'max'.


So, I elected to try 10 Grains of Unique...figuring my Bullet was a little lighter.


Bullet is the old 'SAECO' # 453, being something of a Wad Cutter, of 230 Grains. ( Which Bullet may be seen below as itself, next to two Cartridges loaded with it. )


Mostly I was interested to discover some suitable Loads for an old .45 Colt Snubby...for occasions of it being Carried.


Cartridge showed an average of 865 FPS @ ten Yards out of Mr. Snubulator.

When unloading, I found a Cartridge which had seperated in to two, and I have not yet removed the 'shell' from the Cylinder.

This Revolver began Life as a Model 1917, chambering the .45 ACP Cartridges.

.45 Long Colt will also chamber, and, I think what happened, is that the Cartridge in question was a snug fit and all the way forward, and with it's somewhat generous Head Space, it then bound just enough when firing to not slide 'back' quick enough, and, seperated as you see here.

Brass is new to me, but, and was supposedly 'once fired' and Mixed Headstamp. The one which seperates is a "C B C: Headstamp.

What is your opinion here on this?


Should I stay with .45 ACP for this Revolver, and, steer Clear of anything peppy far as .45 LC?

 

[Brock K]

The 45 LC case should not be fired in a pistol chambered for 45acp.. It will have a snug because of the lenght and aslo a 45lc case measures .480 at the base of the case ABOVE the extractor groove to the case mouth the rim itself measures .512.. ACP measures .480 on the rim and .476 above the groove and close to .473 at the mouth .. Whats goin on is your not leaving any kind of room for expansion and something has got to give.. It just happened to be the case in this instance...

 

[evan price]

To my knowledge, you are OVER MAX with that load. My thought is 8.5gr of Unique should be the max with a 225/230 lead slug.

Alliant says 9.5 grains of Unique with a 200-grain lead bullet is the max loading. Since your bullet is heavier you need to reduce the powder charge accordingly.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=200&shellid=36&bulletid=62

It is possible the brass was brittle and since it is unknown age it may be just old brass. I like CBC brass myself. It's also possible that that specific chamber is a little bit different size. Why are you using 45 LC in a 45 acp revolver anyway?

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Brock K,

Hi Evan Price,


I appreciate your mentions.

Usually, any Factory .45 Colt Cartridge will chamber with ease, and I had fired many out of this Revolver in the past without incident...there is no 'step' in the Cylinder Bores, and it always seemed fine to do.

Various old timers I used to know were familiar with how some of the Model 1917s would chamber and manage either Cartridge, and no one ever suggested there was any reason not to fire both.

I elected to try loading for it, because it was firing Factory .45 ACP Hardball Cartridges where the recovered Bullets showed just about no Rifling impressions.

I measured the Bore, and, it appears to be about .454, and, the Cylinder Chambers seem to be about .454 also. Rifeling is in good condition, so it is not as if it is worn out or unusually shallow.

So, the 'Saeco' Wadcutters I sent off for, mike out to be just about .454, and, in order to fit them into the .45 Colt Cases, I omitted re-sizing the once-fired Cases.

Thus, having a minutely chubbier than usual Cartridge, they slipped into the Cylinder Chambers nicely, if requiring a little extra pressing to get in all the way. Normally, .45 Colt merely slip in easily to full depth.


My two 'LYMAN' Manuals, being Handbooks No. 38, and, 39...both show charges of 'UNIQUE', for a 137 Grain Lead Bullet, of from 8.0 to 10.7 Grains.

So, I did not feel I was being impetuous!

I just figured, why bother with the "8.0" when all I would do is fire them off and come home and go onto the "10" or so anyway...figuring "10" should be alright for a Bullet which was a little lighter than what they were calling for...and is some ways below what they regarded as a maximum charge.


Just so you know...


Possibly more recent Handbooks have elected to lighten what had previously been Charges considered suitable for .45 Colt.

 

[OYE]

My books don't show that load for 45 colt ( have data back to 1979 ) 230 gr. bullet.
Most do not show it for a 200 gr. bullet ( there is one instance of a max. load for a 200 gr. and it's an old book). I'm surprised those chamber as the 45 colt case is bigger diameter than the 45 acp.
and the 45 auto rim, and the rims are thinner.
45 colt - rim diameter= .512 in. rim thickness is .060 in.

45 auto rim - rim diameter = .516 rim thickness = .090 in.

Would assume your gun was made for the 45 acp with half moon clips or the 45 auto rim
cartridge. Since the 45 colt headspaces on the rim, the thinner rim would be enough
to blow the case very likely. Think it's a bad idea to shoot them in it, as you have found out. And definitely stay with the lighter loads with the cartridge with which it is intended.
That is too old of a gun to shoot high intensity loads in.

 

[Oro]

Alliant says 9.5 grains of Unique with a 200-grain lead bullet is the max loading.

My Speer manual (an older, very generous one) says 10.5 grains of Unique is max with a 200gr lead. But it also shows 9.0 gr. as max with a 250gr, no data on the 230 or 240. So I do think that was a warm load to start. CBC I have found to be more inconsistent than most US brass makers. It can vary in thickness and also rim diameter. It's not bad brass, but it's not top-flight. A combination of a warm load and a marginal spec brass could easily do this.

Also, since you say a 45 Colt fits, but the gun wasn't originally chambered for it, you do have to wonder what the chamber dimensions truly are if you have not checked them. Could be a variety of sources.

Lots of 1917's and .455s were converted to 45 LC in the 20s. Some were done very well, some not so well. Part of the problem might also be the throats. The .455s were already throated for .454 lead; a 1917 was not. If the chamber was re-bored on the 1917 but not the throats, you could also be getting a little overpressure from that since you say you were using .454 and not .452 bullets.

Another issue here is LOA. A .45 Colt case with a 230 or 240 gr. bullet seated properly runs right at 1.60" LOA. Which would stick just out the front of a .45acp 1917 cylinder in a S&W - not sure about the Colt. But either would also leave a too-shallow headspace behind; the .45 Colt rims are very thin.

 

[OYE]

The main issue is the headspace in that gun is "NOT" for the 45 colt cartridge. Even though you got by with it for a while. YOU WERE LUCKY. DON't PRESS YOUR LUCK !!!!
If you have to " force " a cartridge in a gun, something is wrong, DON"T DO IT !!!!!!

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Oye, all,


Because I wished to have a Bullet which would fit the Cylinder Bore snugly, this was going to be a 'Thumb Press' fit to begin with, by intention, and since the Bullet shape is a sort of 'Beer Can', and it occupied some ways into the Cylinder Bore, it fits 'snug' as I intended it to do.

This was no arbitrary concession or make do.


Very possibly this Revolver was originally for .45 Colt, and, someone later adapted a M1917 Cylinder to it...I do not know.


But, having found that the Cylinder Bores and the Barrel Bore are both too large for ordinary .45 ACP Bullets, I wished to load for it intentionally, with a .454 Lead Bullet.

Now, maybe the best thing for me to do, would be to load .45 ACP for it, with previously fired Cases, and, not to re-size them, thus permitting the Cases to oblige a .454 Bullet...and, then not having to feel concern about the Head Space issue effecting them, as it may effect .45 Colt Cartridges.

Personally, I have always loved the use of the Full 'Moon Clips', and I would rather use .45 ACP in this Revolver anyway.

The problem, as I came to understand it, is one of having Bullets of a diameter to suit the actual Chambers, and Barrel Bore, the Revolver actually has.

 

[Oyeboten]

I had also tested a bunch of Black Powder Loads to-day, using the same 'SAECO' Bullet.

Some of these, for wishing to use 35 Grains of 3 F Black Powder, I loaded the Bullet backwards, so the Crimp Groove was still my Crimp Point, only with the bulk of the Bullet out of the Case.

Viz:





This then in the Colt, the front of the Bullet being flat' across, was about 1/32nd of an Inch shy of the front of the Cylinder.


These behaved wonderfully, and with the 35 grains of BP, gave nice results of 670 FPS out of the 'Snubby'.

 

[243winxb]

Could be bad brass or to hot a load. The bullet seems to be seated deeper than a lswc would normally be seated, raising pressure. In 44mag. i have had case separations like yours, reducing the load cured the problem.

Should I stay with .45 ACP for this Revolver, and, steer Clear of anything peppy far as .45 LC?

Edit:> If there is no chamber in the cylinder for the acp, no reason not to fire the 45 colt in it. Pressure wise acp is 21000. 45colt is 14000. 45colt (ruger) is 25000 CUP. Is your cylinder/frame strong enough for the 25,000 CUP? http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

 

[sig220mw]

On your next to the last post you used the phrase "I do not know".

 

[Oyeboten]

Very possibly this Revolver was originally for .45 Colt, and, someone later adapted a M1917 Cylinder to it...I do not know.

Given the Barrel Bore diameter is too large for .45 ACP ( as it would usually be ), I began to wonder if this may have originally been a .45 Colt Revolver, later fitted with a .45 ACP Cylinder.

Which Cylinder then may have been adapted by modification, to accept .45 Colt.


I do not know the History of this individual Revolver.

 

[sourdough44]

I agree there are other factors at play here,(age, modified revolver, etc) but I do believe your load is on the warm side for what your dealing with. I load 9.7 grns of Unique under a 250 grn bullet for a modern Blackhawk in 45 colt. I have some room on the upside but it's still a powerful load. I would tone it down some.

 

[243winxb]

Citation needed

In early Colt production revolvers, attempting to fire the .45 ACP without the half-moon clips was unreliable at best, as the cartridge could slip forward into the cylinder and away from the firing pin.[citation needed] Later production Colt M1917 revolvers had headspacing machined into the cylinder chambers, just as the Smith & Wesson M1917 revolvers had from the start. Newer Colt production could be fired without the half-moon clips,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_revolver

 

[griz]

That bullet may only weigh 230, but it's almost a wadcutter, drastically reducing the space for the powder. I think your load is too hot. That velocity would be pretty good for a max Unique load in a 6 inch barrel.

 

[Walkalong]

A combination of a used case, a warm load, and borderline to excess head space. IMHO of course.

 

[Slamfire]

That revolver looks like a Colt New Service, a pre WW2 revolver.

What the heck are you doing shooting maximum loads in that revolver? Has not anyone told you just how soft the metals in those revolvers are?

I found out the hard way by trying to turn the barrel on a Colt New Service. I had locked a Ruger Vaquero in the barrel vise turned the frame, got the front sight to line up so that point of aim was point of impact. No problem. Ruger pistols are build of hard and tough materials.

Then I clamped the New Service, turned the frame, loosened the barrel vise and found that the barrel was squished!. Then I found the frame was bent. EEK!. I ruined a decent New Service.

It was easy to rebend the frame so the crane was in alignment, but it took a friendly gunsmith with a mandrial to pound out the soft barrel.

My New Service goes bang, but is not very accurate.

Some posters have stated that early M1911’s were not heat treated, it may be the same with the entire production of New Service revolvers.

When you load for a New Service, your max load is the lightest listed in a loading manual.

Period loading data for the M1909 cartridge was a soft lead 255 grain bullet at 755 fps. That was max back then.

 

[Mal H]

My two 'LYMAN' Manuals, being Handbooks No. 38, and, 39...both show charges of 'UNIQUE', for a 137 Grain Lead Bullet, of from 8.0 to 10.7 Grains.

I assume you meant a "237" grain bullet. My question is what are the publication dates of those two manuals? They have to be quite old.

I couldn't find a modern reloading manual that recommended anything near 10 grains of Unique for that weight of a bullet. ("Modern" being from 1980 on.)

 

[Jim Watson]

The checkered trigger is not correct for a 1917 Colt. I don't think the rounded checkered cylinder latch is, either. This may be a parts gun. You hardly ever see a 1917 with the bored-through cylinder, I think most of them were replaced. The rejects might have been sold off and used for a project like this.

Any road, the deeply seated wadcutter will tend to increase pressures.
Also, a cartridge that has to be pushed into the chamber is showing what Clark calls "bullet pinch". With no place for the brass to expand to release the bullet, pressures will climb.

I think a combination of off-brand brass, the load in it, and the gun added up to an overload. As you say, the front part of the case was already tight in the chamber and the rear end set back into the .030" excess headspace left by shooting a .45 Colt in a .45 ACP gun, pulling the case in half.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Mal H,

You'd asked -

I assume you meant a "237" grain bullet. My question is what are the publication dates of those two manuals? They have to be quite old.

I couldn't find a modern reloading manual that recommended anything near 10 grains of Unique for that weight of a bullet. ("Modern" being from 1980 on.)

Yes, a typo...I meant 237 Grain Bullet.

The Lyman 38 Handbook is Copywrite 1951

The Lyman 39 Handbook is Copywrite 1953

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jin Watson, all,

Good call there Jim...

I just examined things some more, and, the Cylinder Bores appear to be tapered.

While a Factory .45 Colt Cartridge has a little wiggle room for fit at the base and Bullet Nose, the once fired, and loaded with .454 Bullet Cartridges I made up the other day, are in fact 'snug' for the upper Case fit, and unloaded but prepared Cases are 'snug' for the last 3/8ths or so inch of fit, even with no Bullet in them.

This may just be the 'Deal Breaker' then, as far as my wishing to shoot chubbier-than-usual .45 Colt Cartridges in it.


Starting fresh with my Verneer Dial Calliper, the Barrel Bore between Lands seems to be .458, even though decent Rifeling is present.


Front portions of Cylinder Bores appear to be right about .455.


These diameters seem over generous to me for the diameters associated with .45 ACP Bullets, and, for having examined some Hardball I had fired a while beck, recovering the Bullets, I had noticed the Bullets had only some slight frosty swaths where wide Rifling impresses ought to have been.

This led me to wish to try a chubbier, and Lead Bullet.

 

[Jim Watson]

A determined experimenter could hone out the chambers until the chubby bullet loads chambered freely.

I still think 10 grains Unique is a lot even for a 237 grain bullet.

 

[OYE]

If you have loaded 45 ACP with the full or half moon clips (or 45 auto rim cases) in that gun and the cylinder
closed, then the gun was not modified for 45 colt. Your headspace would be in excess
of .030 in. on the 45 colt cartridge in that gun. Headspace on a revolver should never be more than .008 in.. It isn't safe to shoot that cartridge if that's the case.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jim,


Maybe so!


I am kind of thinking though, that since I really prefer the full Moon Clips and .45 ACP for this Revolver, maybe the shorter Cartridge would in itself solve the issue of the Tapered Cylinder Bore tolerance, even if allowing some early Blow-By to occur.

I had concluded that the pecularities of the Cylinder Bore diameters and the barrel Bore diameter, would require that this Revolver be loaded for deferentially...so, I am thinking, that if I were to elect to only use .45 ACP Cartridges, I would have to fire form them, and, arrange some reloading Dies, allowing me to use a .454 or even .455 Bullet, and to provide the Cartridges with a good Crimp.


Since 10 Grains of 'Unique' would not even fit into such a Cartridge, I would of course find some other Powder which would, and, maybe be a little more conservative far as electing more of a median Loading.


The Wadcutters I was using...may indeed have been meant for lighter Loads, in so far as their Crimp Groove may have suggested to me a seating depth which left maybe less air space above the 'Unique' than a similar weight Lead Bullet of other shape would have....though in comparing some other .45 Colt Bullets I have here, the difference would seem to be only about .035 - .040 of an Inch.

This may have invited a slightly higher pressure of course than the Lyman Manual had in mind for the Loading I had elected, which in effect, may well have been close to Max by their reconning for having a little less Air space, a condition which I would not want to be causing...so, I will try and keep that in mind, as things go on from here.

 

[Old Fuff]

If you post the revolver's serial number (located on the frame behind the crane) I can determine if it's one of the early 1917 Army models that had a straight-through bored chambers. These are seldom seen because not many were made, and the Army later replaced most of them.

It is also possible that someone bored out the original .45 ACP chambers, thinking they could use both .45 ACP and .45 Colt cartridges while using 1/2 moon clips on the former. This isn't necessarily true, becase if the cylinder was originally chambered in .45 ACP the headspace will be excessive when shooting .45 Colt cartridges, and that in itself could explain the split case. The hotter the load and faster burning the powder, the more likely the occurance of a seperated case. On the other hand, using black powder might allow you to get away with something you wouldn't otherwise.