Cast bullet grooves

[Stefan A]

I have purchased some cast bullets for the first time because a number of people here recommended I do so. So, I bought Cowboy #15 from Missouri Bullet company. I wanted a bullet that I could make the OAL a bit longer so my lever gun would more accurately feed. I filled my magazine tube with what you see below - 38 special - and I had no problem with those 11. I know I need more testing to really say for sure if this helped - after all the difference between the cartridges that fed poorly and these is minimal. Went from 1.43 to 1.48 OAL. Not sure how much that matters.

Anyway, I'm curious about these groves on the bullet. Considering that the crimp is in between the 2 grooves, I'm wondering what the groove's purpose is. What is the top groove vs. the bottom groove? If these bullets were in the 38 special section of their website, why is the crimp not lining up with one of the grooves?

 

[troy fairweather]

Top is a crimp grove, bottom is for lube.

 

[Stefan A]

Top is a crimp grove, bottom is for lube.

Oh, I see. This cartridge would be way too short if I crimped at the groove. I guess these bullets were actually meant for 357 mag. That sucks...

 

[Rule3]

No they are for 38 special tube magazine You have it seated in the wrong place

https://missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=4&category=5&secondary=9

 

[mdi]

I'm guessing a bullet seated to the crimp groove won't feed? Personally I don't crimp into the side of a bullet, but if that solves a feeding problem, go ahead. I doubt if the bullets were intended for 357 only, as fired in a revolver,OAL isn't critical (as long as the bullet doesn't stick out of the front of the cylinder, it's OK. Since 1969 I have seated all my revolver bullets to the crimp groove regardless of book OAL). If a longer cartridge is needed, I would search for some 357 brass...

 

[Rule3]

Some 357 mag lever rifles do not feed 38 special very well

 

[Charlie98]

If it’s not broke, don’t fix it. The bullets are coated… so the lube groove is arbitrary. If it works as a crimp groove, and it works in the firearm, I don’t see a problem… besides less neck tension.

 

[Ru4real]

Seat OAL to keep your lever reliable. That’s the primary concern.

 

[Stefan A]

No they are for 38 special tube magazine You have it seated in the wrong place

https://missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=4&category=5&secondary=9

I guess so. Seating to the crimp gives me an OAL that Lyman says to do. Seating it the way I have is what Lee says to do with the powder I'm using. I chose this powder because it gave me the longest OAL of the powders I have.

If a longer cartridge is needed, I would search for some 357 brass...

I have plenty - but was hoping to use my 38 special brass. Might just have to go for a 357 light load.

 

[Charlie98]

Oddly enough, the OAL of your cartridge as it is is likely the same OAL of that bullet seated properly in .357 brass.

 

[Rule3]

I guess so. Seating to the crimp gives me an OAL that Lyman says to do. Seating it the way I have is what Lee says to do with the powder I'm using. I chose this powder because it gave me the longest OAL of the powders I have.


I have plenty - but was hoping to use my 38 special brass. Might just have to go for a 357 light load.

For a revolver or tube mag rifle, just seat to the crimp groove, put good roll crimp and don't worry about what the book says the COL should be.

Neither manual used the exact same bullet that you have.

 

[AJC1]

38 bullets have a longer nose than the 357 bullets do. If you look at the 38156 bullet with two crimp groves, the lower one is for 38. Using short nose 357 bullets in 38 cases will make your feed issues worse. The long swcs in the 170 class bullet will probably help your issue.

 

[Stefan A]

Oddly enough, the OAL of your cartridge as it is is likely the same OAL of that bullet seated properly in .357 brass.

Not quite. I just tested that theory and it comes to 1.58 in 357. Mine is 1.48

 

[AJC1]

Not quite. I just tested that theory and it comes to 1.58 in 357. Mine is 1.48

Bullets over .300 from nose to crimp grove are 38 bullets and will crimp where you need and give you the oal you want.

 

[Stefan A]

I made 11 rounds and crimped at the groove. Shot those, and then shot my longer ones crimped before the groove. Had no feeding problems with either. The problem may have been with the JHP bullets I was using before I got these cast ones. Not really sure if that can affect feeding. So, I'll just buy these cast bullets from now on since they are way cheaper than xtp's or other bullets I'd get. Plus they seem to work. Thanks for all the advise.

 

[Charlie98]

So, I'll just buy these cast bullets from now on since they are way cheaper than xtp's or other bullets I'd get.

True that.

Just FYI, there are, literally, hundreds of cast bullets that will work in your application. I'm not necessarily a big fan of RN bullets when shooting paper because they don't leave a cut hole like a wadcutter, or even a semi-wadcutter does. If that bullet comes up short somewhere, don't be afraid to drop it and move on...

 

[Stefan A]

True that.

Just FYI, there are, literally, hundreds of cast bullets that will work in your application. I'm not necessarily a big fan of RN bullets when shooting paper because they don't leave a cut hole like a wadcutter, or even a semi-wadcutter does. If that bullet comes up short somewhere, don't be afraid to drop it and move on...

I'm just shooting steel, so that's not an issue. But yeah, I imagine there's tons of companies out there.

 

[Seedy Character]

For a revolver or tube mag rifle, just seat to the crimp groove, put good roll crimp and don't worry about what the book says the COL should be.

Neither manual used the exact same bullet that you have.

OP states loading to longer OAL because of lever action feeding.

Looks like .38 loaded to .357.

Biggest problem in a lever action is getting too long to feed.
Using .357 cases will alleviate your feeding problem.

 

[Soonerpesek]

Deleted....

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I made 11 rounds and crimped at the groove. Shot those, and then shot my longer ones crimped before the groove. Had no feeding problems with either. The problem may have been with the JHP bullets I was using before I got these cast ones. Not really sure if that can affect feeding. So, I'll just buy these cast bullets from now on since they are way cheaper than xtp's or other bullets I'd get. Plus they seem to work. Thanks for all the advise.

This cartridge would be way too short if I crimped at the groove.

I was going to mention you might want to measure your rifles chamber before making assumptions. It’s not hard to measure a lever action chamber - whether you’re using tools meant for the job or just a set of calipers - but it’s not exactly intuitive. And depending on the action it can take three hands and some patience. Berger Bullets has several articles written for the bench rest shooter which explains the basic concepts. The most common method is to use a split case and the bullet you intend to shoot. Totally unnecessary with cast bullets with a crimp groove - especially if you’re happy with the current load you found - but it’s good technique to have in your arsenal.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Bullets intended for loading in a .357mag have to be seated such that they don’t project out the front of the cylinder of a revolver, thus preventing cylinder rotation.
The Model 19 S&W is famous for this. The 165gr Keith style semi wadcutter so popular in the S&W Mod 27 crimped to the groove will protrude from the shorter cylinder.
The Lyman .356156 (iirc) was the bullet Skeeter Skelton favored. It has two crimp grooves. He used the rear groove to seat long and load .357mag loads in .38Spec brass.

You’re loads crimped into the bearing surface are fine as long as they don’t telescope in your magazine.

 

[Stefan A]

So, I'm starting to get the idea that people generally crimp to the groove, regardless of what the OAL says in the manual? I was under the impression that OAL was as critical as anything else when assembling a cartridge.

 

[RKRCPA]

So, I'm starting to get the idea that people generally crimp to the groove, regardless of what the OAL says in the manual? I was under the impression that OAL was as critical as anything else when assembling a cartridge.

Overall length is entirely dependent upon the specific cast bullet in use. SAAMI says OAL for my 41 mag should be 1.59", the Lyman 410459 OAL is 1.70ish.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I was under the impression that OAL was as critical as anything else

Negative. The important measure is seating depth - the amount of space, by volume, the seated portion of the bullet takes up in the case - not how much bullet is sticking out. Reducing the case volume changes the pressure. Sometimes the change is irrelevant; sometimes the change is critical. It depends on a list of factors starting with the percentage change in case volume and the type of powder.
With small loads of faster powders in large cases with plenty of volume - your basic low-pressure steel plinking loads - it’s going to be a non-factor as long as you are close to the correct seating depth according to the loading tables.
Overall average length is just a convenient way of getting the seating depth.

 

[AJC1]

So, I'm starting to get the idea that people generally crimp to the groove, regardless of what the OAL says in the manual? I was under the impression that OAL was as critical as anything else when assembling a cartridge.

Well it's preferred to use the crimp grove because that's what they are made for. What I have described earlier trying to use a 38 bullet in a 357 with a crimp grove longer than .300 results in just roll crimping into the lead as you have done. It's really not that big of deal but I've never crimped into a lube grove as you have done. No harm no foul I guess.