I got some 170 gr cast bullets in .310. I loaded them with 5744 to around 1700 fps. They are all over the place and badly. I have an 1894 Win 30WCF and it shoot jacketed bullets very well. I shoot cast bullets in other rifles no prob. Not sure where to start in diagnosing the issue. Do you all think .310 is too big? I am talking trainwreck pattern. Have no idea where the bullet will go.
Cast Bullets for 30WCF
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Docendo Discimus
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Any lead in the bore? It sounds like you might be stripping the rifling. What alloy is it? Are you using gas checks?
First time shooting cast bullets in it. I used moly coated bullets and do so in other rifles, so no gas checks. Haven't had this prob in other rifles but not shooting oversized bullets in the other rifles, so makes me suspect the bullets are too big.
Try using the gas checks. Your casts may be too soft. Also try lowering your velocity until the rifle shoots it well. Try 1600 fps, then 1500 and so on. If too fast the round will not engage the rifling , as @Docendo Discimus you may be stripping the rifling.
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FROGO207
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I had great luck using Lasercast 170 grain lead bullets. Then tried home cast and it was not accurate unless I added a gas check. My home cast lead was in the Lyman #2 range. .309-.310 all shot the same. The Lasercast were .309 and pretty much as accurate as jacketed in all my 30-30's.
The Lee 170 gr With gas check. Cast from good ole Wheel Weights, softened a bit with Straight Lead, sized, and Lubed .310, in my ancient Ideal model 45... My model 94 gobbles them up and shoots them as well as any projectile I have tried. By Memory, my best loading was a by the book (Lyman cast 4th) of 4198.
Believe it or Not...Sometimes the first go with Cast Projectiles is Riddled with Self Fullfilling Prophecy... or Doubt cast by the InterWeb!!
Believe it or Not...Sometimes the first go with Cast Projectiles is Riddled with Self Fullfilling Prophecy... or Doubt cast by the InterWeb!!
Seedy Character
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I with the "too soft, too fast" crowd.
Back off the powder charge, do a reverse ladder test, and find your sweet spot.
My guess, just under 1600 will be awesome.
I have pushed powder coated to 2500, with no problems.
Back off the powder charge, do a reverse ladder test, and find your sweet spot.
My guess, just under 1600 will be awesome.
I have pushed powder coated to 2500, with no problems.
AJC1
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I've not used that powder but I have shot a pile of 170s with different powders. Try 26 grains of tac or 18 grains of 2400. Those both work good enough to shoot Silhouette matches. If your results suck try pc or gc.
Charlie98
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Speaking from experience, maybe try a .311" bullet.
I had a Savage 99 in .30-30 that demanded a .310" bullet (over the standard .309" cast.) With the .309"s, it did the very same thing yours is doing... patterns. It doesn't take much, and this was in a rifle made in 1927.
I don't see a problem with AA5744... it's in the same burn range as IMR4198, my favorite cast rifle powder, and I've used it, just not specifically in the .30-30. I also don't see a problem with your velocity... assuming you have the properly sized bullet, in a reasonable hardness for that velocity. I've run hard cast bullets up to 1900fps in the .30-30 without issues... this with commercially cast bullets, I don't cast meself.
I would clean that bore, and try to find a small sample of .311" cast bullets with a BHN in the mid teens. A gas check wouldn't hurt, but shouldn't be necessary unless it just gets down to that.
If you have a pile of those .310"s already, try powder coating them without sizing them after... and see how those do.
I had a Savage 99 in .30-30 that demanded a .310" bullet (over the standard .309" cast.) With the .309"s, it did the very same thing yours is doing... patterns. It doesn't take much, and this was in a rifle made in 1927.
I don't see a problem with AA5744... it's in the same burn range as IMR4198, my favorite cast rifle powder, and I've used it, just not specifically in the .30-30. I also don't see a problem with your velocity... assuming you have the properly sized bullet, in a reasonable hardness for that velocity. I've run hard cast bullets up to 1900fps in the .30-30 without issues... this with commercially cast bullets, I don't cast meself.
I would clean that bore, and try to find a small sample of .311" cast bullets with a BHN in the mid teens. A gas check wouldn't hurt, but shouldn't be necessary unless it just gets down to that.
If you have a pile of those .310"s already, try powder coating them without sizing them after... and see how those do.
Thanks for all the replies everyone. Lots of good advice to try. Bear Creek moly coated bullets run about 13 BHN. From what I about Lasercast, it seems it is very similar to Bear Creek. While BHN is not real hard, the moly is meant to prevent leading. I thought around 1700 would be fine for moly coated and oversized bullet which would seal and negate the need for a gas check. I am used to shooting these bullets in 45-70 with BP, so new to trying them in my Win94
Docendo Discimus
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.310 is not too big, so that one can be ruled out. The alloy is not too hard either. 13bhn moly coated should be ok up to around 1500 fps or so. Check to make sure that the coating is not getting scraped in places by the case neck, a nice chamfer and "M" die will help there.
I would test a load around 1400 to 1500 and see what happens.
If you need more velocity I would go with powdercoat, gas checks are an option also but they aren't cheap. Sage's outdoors has the best price I've found on checks.
DD
I would test a load around 1400 to 1500 and see what happens.
If you need more velocity I would go with powdercoat, gas checks are an option also but they aren't cheap. Sage's outdoors has the best price I've found on checks.
DD
I had the same issue with a 336 Marlin and 135 grain coated bullets. Too much 2400 wasn’t going to work. I backed down and got decent groups at 25 yards but then it fell apart at further distances. I had to switch powders to get anything resembling a group at 50 yards. The hotter 2400 charge also spackled my barrel with lead. Took hours to clean out.
Charlie98
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I've shot a lot of LaserCast bullets, both pistol and rifle. They are decent enough bullets, but you really have to get the diameter right. Their 173grn FP cast for the .30-30 is actually a gas check design bullet... you can crimp your own gas checks on them. I've used LaserCast in .45-70 as well... they did pretty good there, too, but I didn't have an issue with bullet diameter there.
243winxb
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My 94 barrel is rough. Accuracy would get worse as leading started. Shooting 173 gr GC hard lead, not coated.
IMR 4895 powder can produce near full power loadings in the 30-30/30WCF.
Tubb's Final Finish may help rough barrels.
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Measure how far the bullet has to travel before it touches rifling. My JM Marlin 336 required the bullet to jump a full half inch before touching any rifling. It will not group all cast lead bullets on a 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper at 100 yards.
there is nothing I can do to improve the accuracy of cast bullets when the things are probably being bent before they touch the rifling. I cannot load cast lead bullets out to 3.0 inches as a loaded round is too long to eject .
it will shoot jacketed bullets acceptably for a woods rifle where no shots will be 200 yards or more
These lever action rifles are extremely sensitive to velocity variations, so find a powder with low ES's and SD's to have fewer wild shots and rounder groups.
If your rifle requires your cast lead bullet to travel a great distance before touching the lands, there is nothing you can do, outside of a new barrel, that will fix this problem.
AJC1
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The getting close to the lands I believe came from cast boolit shooters way before vlds were a thing. My rcbs cast manual says get as close as possible
Thanks for all that detailed info Slamfire. I measured my OAL for both jacketed and cast and I am able to minimize jump with the cast bullets. The rifle shoots well with 160 FTX bullets and 31 grains of Accurate 4064 and makes a great hunting round. I just thought it would be fun to shoot some cast bullets for plinking rather than using jacketed. I will make some test loads for around 1500 with a few different powders I have. Thanks!
teerex.otw
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If your 336 has Micro-Groove rifling that may be part of the problem. This rifling is really shallow and soft material tends to “skate”.
My son’s 336 does fine with jacketed bullets, but we can’t get anything useable with any cast bullets.
However, these same cast bullets do quite well in my 30-30 H&R.
^^ Allow me to respectfully Disagree with yhe Notion that Softer boolits are somehow Bad..
I personally have experienced Terrible Leading problems caused by Hard Boolits... My Model 94 does very well with softer, larger boolits... Not even to 2000fps tho.. Oh...Ans the Gas Check works like it is Supposed to...
I personally have experienced Terrible Leading problems caused by Hard Boolits... My Model 94 does very well with softer, larger boolits... Not even to 2000fps tho.. Oh...Ans the Gas Check works like it is Supposed to...
My Marlin was made 1993 and it has the microgroove rifling. And I really dislike microgroove rifling, I do believe the thin lands strip out from cast bullets. Perhaps the best cast bullet barrel I have is a two groove M1903A3, that barrel will push cast bullets faster than any four or six groove barrel I have.
Here as velocities increase, the microgroove barrel pukes.
I agree. Reese Teague of Valiant Bullets told me he cast his pistol bullets to 13 BHN and his pistol bullets did not lead and shot very well . Maybe the hard cast bullets will hold up at high velocities, though I never had any issues with Reese's bullets in 357 Magnums or 44 Magnums. His 357 bullets obdurate at 38 Special pressures and shot very accurately, what more can I want? Same with his 0.429 at 44 Special and 44 Magnum velocities. I do think the "Hard cast" allure is the same as nasty medicine. Nasty medicine has to be better, right? Hard has to be better than soft, right?
Nah......................
AJC1
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If I rember the rumor correctly hard bullets were for commercial shipping not performance...
We Are still in the reloading room...Right?????
GeoDudeFlorida
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I’m almost out of Valiant 158gr .38 and 240gr .44 LSWC’s. I ran out of .452 and .356 Valiant bullets of every variety long ago. Great bullets and super nice people.
GT bullets says the same: it’s not the hardness it’s the alloy.
Roverguy
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.310 is the minimum that you want in cast for .308. If they are not gas checked, you need to load them down to @1200 with a pistol powder. Any 170 grs cast bullet at 1200 fps and above will stabilize with the 1:12 twist rate. If the ones you are shooting are not gas checked, there’s your major problem - they are suffering from gas cutting. Slow them down and things should improve.
Before buying more cast bullets for the 30-30 (and your 94 is ideal for shooting cast btw), you may want to slug the bore. If this is an old rifle, there may be throat erosion, and it may run more .309+ than .308. Load to the throat, so it could be that .311 bullets are even better than .310. 1500 -1700 is the sweet spot for cast in 30-30 for me, but that’s mainly from a Marlin microgroove barrel, whereas with yours, properly fitted gas checked bullets should be fine up to 2000 fps.
Don’t let this experience put you off. The 30-30 is ideal for cast bullets.
Before buying more cast bullets for the 30-30 (and your 94 is ideal for shooting cast btw), you may want to slug the bore. If this is an old rifle, there may be throat erosion, and it may run more .309+ than .308. Load to the throat, so it could be that .311 bullets are even better than .310. 1500 -1700 is the sweet spot for cast in 30-30 for me, but that’s mainly from a Marlin microgroove barrel, whereas with yours, properly fitted gas checked bullets should be fine up to 2000 fps.
Don’t let this experience put you off. The 30-30 is ideal for cast bullets.
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