CCI #41 Primers

[Larryswn]

Hello all. I've been reloading .223 and am moving on the 5.56. I bought some #41 CCI primers not realizing these are considered Magnum primers. All the recipes in my #9 Hornady book show WSR primers which I have but I would like to use the #41's up if possible. Can I just reduce load and use them? I'm using brand new LC brass a Hornady 68G fmjbt hollow point and CFE 223 powder. Any thoughts?

 

[hdwhit]

In the early 1980's I settled on 20.3 grains of IMR-4198 underneath a Hoernady 60 grain (Hollow Point or Soft Point) bullet for use in my Ruger Mini-14. There was a mini-drought of reloading components in the part of Arkansas I was living at the time and so I loaded with whatever primers I could get. This was almost always CCI primers; both magnum and regular. I used them interchangably and could not tell the difference.

But like any change in components, you should work up a load starting from minimum powder charge to verify that with your components and in your gun everything is safe.

Note that 20.3 grains of IMR-4198 was below Maximum Load per the Hornady Manual, 4th Edition that I was using at the time. Subsequent editions of the Hornady Manual (such as the 8th Edition) now show a Maximum Load below 20.3 grains. I have elected to not disassemble loads that have worked well for me for 30+ years, but would always follow current load data when assembling new loads.

 

[Larryswn]

In the early 1980's I settled on 20.3 grains of IMR-4198 underneath a Hoernady 60 grain (Hollow Point or Soft Point) bullet for use in my Ruger Mini-14. There was a mini-drought of reloading components in the part of Arkansas I was living at the time and so I loaded with whatever primers I could get. This was almost always CCI primers; both magnum and regular. I used them interchangably and could not tell the difference.

But like any change in components, you should work up a load starting from minimum powder charge to verify that with your components and in your gun everything is safe.

Note that 20.3 grains of IMR-4198 was below Maximum Load per the Hornady Manual, 4th Edition that I was using at the time. Subsequent editions of the Hornady Manual (such as the 8th Edition) now show a Maximum Load below 20.3 grains. I have elected to not disassemble loads that have worked well for me for 30+ years, but would always follow current load data when assembling new loads.

Sounds good, Ill load a few at minimum and see. Whats the difference? Is Magnum just more exsplosive so would theoretically use less powder?

 

[Larryswn]

I know the book says NEVER use Magnum primers in a load that doesn't call for it but I've got 1,000 of them so.......be great to use em lol

 

[Blue68f100]

If your not at max load you will be fine. If near you could drop the load by 0.1 gr and work back up. The #41's have a different design anvil besides the heavier cup. This is to make the primer less sensitive for free floating firing pins. I have found the #41 to be a very good primer. Once I have a load tuned I always try a different primer to see if the group will close up more, or open. My other primer of choice is the Rem 7 1/2 BR primers.

Some manuals have the higher pressure 5.56 data which normally adds a grain or more of powder. As long as you have a chamber design to take this extra pressure your good to go.

 

[rg1]

CCI 41's are a highly recommended primer for AR's. Use CCI BR4, CCI 450's, or CCI 41's. In .223 I use the same loads with CCI 41 and RP 7 1/2. In 6.5 Grendel CCI 41's gives about 20 fps more than RP 7 1/2. If you have a maximum load worked up then drop back about 1/2 grain and work back up. No reason to not use a highly recommended primer for AR's.
Here's a great article on primers and using them in autoloading rifles like the AR. Scroll all the way through the post:
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/?topic=56422.0

 

[Larryswn]

Great. Thanks fellas!

 

[RussellC]

For my AR15 loads, I use them interchangeably with Winchester small rifle, same load.
If I am making a mistake, I have made it over 7,000 times and didnt notice.

Russellc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hello all. I've been reloading .223 and am moving on the 5.56.

What I'm wondering is, what do you consider the differences between the two? I use #41 primers on all my .223 ammo meant for a semi-auto.

 

[Sunray]

They're not just considered to be magnum primers. That's exactly what they are and nothing else. Brilliant marketing plan by CCI their 'milspec' primers.
The only thing that might happen is the pressures might be a tick higher. Not enough to worry about though.
"...moving on the 5.56..." Same thing. You won't find 5.56NATO load data anywhere. Data used is .223 Rem.

 

[RussellC]

What I'm wondering is, what do you consider the differences between the two? I use #41 primers on all my .223 ammo meant for a semi-auto.

According to CCI they are not the same as magnum primers. The formula is the same for the chemicals, but the cap of the primer is a harder metal. There is a fairly recent thread here somewhere in which a member contacted CCI for answers on this "magnum vs #41, and other comparison lore concerning their primers.

I've used tons of Winchester primers in SR size, and never had a slam fire. (AR15) I have seen very small dents from the pin. This was observed by putting in a new full mag, and letting the bolt slam forward with gun downrange of course. Very slight mark...dent my be to strong a word.



Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Here we go, see post #6

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ufactures-are-different.819471/#post-10517353

I guess there is an "Angle of Anvil" difference as well.

Russellc

 

[Dill]

They're not just considered to be magnum primers. That's exactly what they are and nothing else. Brilliant marketing plan by CCI their 'milspec' primers.
The only thing that might happen is the pressures might be a tick higher. Not enough to worry about though.
"...moving on the 5.56..." Same thing. You won't find 5.56NATO load data anywhere. Data used is .223 Rem.

Western does publish 5.56 data. I use it frequently when loading 5.56 for my AR with Ramshot TAC.

 

[Larryswn]

What I'm wondering is, what do you consider the differences between the two? I use #41 primers on all my .223 ammo meant for a semi-auto.

#41 is considered magnum, none of my recipes call for Magnum but according to everyone here just dropped the charge a little bit and work it up and it should be just fine

 

[Larryswn]

Thanks everyone

 

[ArchAngelCD]

According to CCI they are not the same as magnum primers. The formula is the same for the chemicals, but the cap of the primer is a harder metal. There is a fairly recent thread here somewhere in which a member contacted CCI for answers on this "magnum vs #41, and other comparison lore concerning their primers.

I've used tons of Winchester primers in SR size, and never had a slam fire. (AR15) I have seen very small dents from the pin. This was observed by putting in a new full mag, and letting the bolt slam forward with gun downrange of course. Very slight mark...dent my be to strong a word.



Russellc

My question to the OP was what he considers different between .223 ammo and 5.56mm ammo, not the primers.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

#41 is considered magnum, none of my recipes call for Magnum but according to everyone here just dropped the charge a little bit and work it up and it should be just fine

You said you are moving on to 5.56mm ammo. My question was what do you feel is different between .223 ammo and 5.56mm ammo?

 

[Larryswn]

Case thickness and that's it. Thicker case, the powder fills up higher creating higher pressure. The thicker case able to handle the higher pressure. That's what I gather anyway. The reason for this seems to be so you can shoot higher grain bullets. Of course the rifle itself must be chambered for it. That's about all I could find out sifting through all the "theories" on the internet....... it kind of dawned on me when I realized there's no such thing as a 5.56 headspace/case legth gauge or a 5.56 die set. Once I got my brass I could see outer Dimensions were identical the only difference was the 5.56 was noticeably heavier

 

[MEHavey]

No effective difference in brass...
(in fact military volumes would tend to lower pressures)
223/556
BRASS / gr_H20
Lapua 29.2
Norma 29.5
FedGold 29.8
Hornady/223 29.9
Nosler 30.1
WCC Win Military 30.1
Hornady/NATO 30.2
IMI 30.2
Lapua Match 30.2
Win(Comm) 30.2
Lake City 30.4

and unless yoiu are bumping up against the very top, the #41s are just fine

 

[Larryswn]

No difference in brass then what's the difference? Why the 60k psi? There must be a difference in brass because it's sold separately, I've got bags of both..........confused again. Looking in my book and flipping back and forth there is a load in there that is the same exact bullet, same exact powder and same exact powder charge only difference is the 5.56 goes 200 feet per second more...............I thought I had it figured out with "thicker brass" thing but I guess not

 

[Walkalong]

When it comes to commercial .223 and 5.56 brass from Nato or military contracts, as posted, the weights overlap. 5.56 military spec ammo is loaded to higher pressure than .223. That is why they recommend not to shoot 5.56 in .223 chambers (Please don't go into that long winded debate here).

Western Powders has a 5.56 section where it shows the higher pressure 5.56 loads.

and unless yoiu are bumping up against the very top, the #41s are just fine

Yep.

 

[RussellC]

My question to the OP was what he considers different between .223 ammo and 5.56mm ammo, not the primers.

That question has been beaten to death here. Sounds like a little reading here would help him. Maybe he meant to "stronger" loads?

Russellc

 

[Reloadron]

Small rifle primers
#41......................................Mil. Spec. primer, thick cup, magnum primer charge, angle of anvil change.
BR4.....................................thick cup, standard anvil and standard priming mix held to a tighter tolerance.

The #41 is not at all the same as the CCI 450 Magnum primer. Anyone promoting that line of thought should give CCI a call or email them. They have always been happy to share information.

I did a brief comparison test last summer using four flavors of CCI primers and recording velocities. The brass was all identical, the cases trimmed identical and the same bullets and weighed powder charges.

Please keep in mind I was more focused on getting velocities than hitting the targets so the twn shot groups suffered a little. All shots were with a bolt gun having a 1:12 twist barrel.

I would treat the CCI #41 primers like any other primer starting low and working up a load. Interesting that for a given load the Magnum primers did not always have the fastest velocities.

Ron

 

[Walkalong]

I have been using the Wolf standard primer with thick cup or CCI # 41s. Wolf confuses things by calling their standard mix thick cup primer "magnum". Since I bought those several years ago Wolf now has one marked .223. I'm not sure if they are even available anymore.

SMALL RIFLE PRIMER (part # QQQSR) - Used as a standard small rifle primer. Perfect for the 30 carbine and 223 standard loads. Many people use this primer in bench and other loads for the 223. This primer is a copper colored primer.

SMALL RIFLE MAGNUM PRIMER (part# QQQSRM) - This is the primer we had before for use in the 5.56 loads and hot 223 loads. A thick cup for the higher pressure. We sold a lot of these primers earlier this year. The new lot is brass colored instead of nickel.

SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yeah, the way Wolf marks their primers can be confusing, at least to me.