CCI 500 vs Winchester small pistol Primers

[Dudedog]

I have been loading 9mm luger with Missouri 125gr Lead conicals, mixed brass 4grns of Universal Clays, CCI 500 SP. Everything was fine (up to 4.3grns- using 4). Ran out of CCI so I purchased some Winchester small pistol primers because they were available. Backed off to starting load of 3.8 grns Universal. Smokey where the CCI loads were not. Went down to 3.6 which feels light still smoky. Went up to 4 grns still smoky, primers looking flattened, (compared to CCI) don't want go any higher. Just wondering if any one else was loading these bullets with Universal Clays and your load. Anyone have the issue I seem to be having with the primer change? CCI vs Winchester. I don't believe Winchester makes bad primers could it just be the batch I have.?? I would appreciate any thoughts on this one. I need all the help I can get here in the shooters Paradise of California.

PS Like the Missouri bullets. Great people there, good prices, have used the .45s and .357s as well as thier 9mm MAK bullets. (all with CCI until now...)

 

[rodregier]

I've used a lot of CCI500's and WSP's in 9mmx19, haven't seen any discernable differences
with my cast and jacketed bullet loadings with both.

I haven't used Universal Clays powder for that purpose, so I don't know if it is especially fussy in that application.

 

[oldreloader]

I've never had any issues interchanging them other than the CCI seem to fit the pockets a bit tighter.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I interchange CCI and Win primers in handgun ammo and have not experienced what you report but I have not used a lot of Universal either.

 

[7mmb]

Last year I had to switch from CCI to Remington in small and large pistol. The chronograph showed no difference between the two brands. I can't imagine Winchester primers would be any different.

 

[Lj1941]

I have switched between the two and never had any issues.They both worked fine in semi-autos as well as wheel guns.I have not used Universial however so I can't comment on that.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks for the info

Thanks for the feedback. They seem to shoot just fine (as accurate as I am) just seem to have more smoke. Any thoughts as to why? Need more pressure for clean burn, not hot enough? Driving the bullet too fast or burning up the base , to hot? It does appear that the WSPs are either hotter or have softer cups than the CCi 500s.
Any favorites for the cleanest powder for 9mm? Of course right now I would be happy to get anything listed in the manuals.
I do half my shooting on an indoor range so the smoke is a pain in the butt for shooters in adjacent lanes even if it dosen't really bother me.

 

[Springfield0612]

The increased smoke may be due to the bullet lube vice the powder or primers. If you have more lube built up in the barrell after shooting for awhile it will smoke more. I cast and tumble lube my own bullets and the first 50 with a clean barrell aren't so bad but the more I shoot and the more lube gets in the barrell the smoke increases.
If your smoking out the other people on the range maybe then won't see all their brass, or will just high tail it outta there and you'll be left with a lot more brass!

 

[Potatohead]

LOL. Smokescreen!

 

[sexybeast]

In the past three months I have used Federal, CCI, Remington, and Winchester primers as I have been buying what I can find. I also use Universal and 231 powders, mostly Universal since I was almost out of 231. They all smoke with Missouri bullets, and they all smoke the same. Its the wax lube! When we shot a competition indoors sometimes you had to stop and wait for the smoke to clear!
If you want to see how much smoke is due to the powder you have shoot fmj and then see what difference you get. I think any difference you noticed was due to the humidity, temperature, and wind. During hot and humid days the smoke can get pretty thick at dusk! Wax lube and smoke is the one negative aspect of lead bullets. [that you don't cast and lube yourself]!
Edit #1 Clean barrel or not they will smoke the same. With the heat and pressure the wax smokes. If you want to test this out clean the lube off some of the bullets and load them [not alot of them] Then shoot the lubed ones and see the difference. I've done this with some .45s

 

[Dudedog]

HHmmm like springfield's plan. More brass, yeah. Maybe I could shoot Black powder in a 9mm. Then I should have a good smoke cloud. LOL I can even find black powder in the stores! Probably can't stuff enough in that small case. I will make a mental note to see if it starts off smoky with a clean gun and gets worse after 10, 20, 50 or 100 rounds.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

The increased smoke may be due to the bullet lube vice the powder or primers. If you have more lube built up in the barrell after shooting for awhile it will smoke more. I cast and tumble lube my own bullets and the first 50 with a clean barrell aren't so bad but the more I shoot and the more lube gets in the barrell the smoke increases.
If your smoking out the other people on the range maybe then won't see all their brass, or will just high tail it outta there and you'll be left with a lot more brass!

Not sure if a spike in your lead blood levels is worth the extra brass ><

 

[5thSFGroup]

I second the motion on the wax being the culprit. Before I started pouring my own rounds, I was using Missouri Bullets and liked them a lot. However, the lube on their rounds did cause a bit of smoke. My daughter noticed it more than I did but she did comment on it immediately. Good company, good bullets...smoke from lube...and not just their lube.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks again for your input

I know the lead bullets won't be as clean as FMJ but they are lots Cheaper! Could be it seemed to me there was more smoke after the primer change due to weather. Just wondering if I had somehow lost a magic sweet spot from the CCIs. Will be waiting to get my hands on some more of them just to se. I still think that maybe the Winchesters have softer cups than the CCIs. I use a Lee turrent so its nice to be able to use what one of the disk throws, and I have 2 disks where I have modifed the holes to make them larger than they are to get seteps between the .4, .43 and .46 cc range and 4.0 grns of Universal seems to shoot really well in my Tarus PT99 and my Springfield XD sub. I would appreciate any more thought on the matter as well.

 

[sexybeast]

Well, lets see. Just arrived home from a match where I was shooting lead 9mm with universal powder! You did not say what weight bullet you were shooting or did you even mention the caliber? Yes you did, just looked. Missouri 125gr cone. Personally I have found I get quite a few fliers with that much Universal. I use 3.7 behind 125 and 4.0gr behind a 115 and find they are tack drivers. But boy do they smoke, this evening quite a bit because the humidity was high with little wind!
Primers: CCI are softer than Winchester. this is a fact,,,, well at least what they have been producing this year! Right now the small pistol primers [not magnum] that winchester makes are a yellow/brass color, I have some older ones that are nickel which seem softer. Seems like primers manufacturers are always changing their cups. CCI use to have a reputation for being hard. For the past couple years this has not been so. Personally I think they are almost as soft as Remington but not as soft as Federal. I guess I should say "this week" till they change them again.
Lower your charge of Universal, maybe the smoke will decrease. To me accuracy is the most important issue.

 

[gamestalker]

I haven't used a lot of Winchester's since I began reloading a few decades ago. But, the few times I have I have been kind of disappointed in the quality swings I've experienced.
For instance, today I was putting together a batch of .243 win., and I had a couple of WLRP's left from an old box in my inventory, so I decided to use them up. I was using all once fired Win. brass fired for one batch, and Fed brass for the other, both batches were from the same action. The WLRP's were not seating with good positive resistance, very obvious light seating tension. After using up the only 2 WLRP's in the box, I grabbed a box of my CCI-200's, and all seated with a good snug feeling seat, normal in other words. This isn't the first time I've noticed this with Win. primers, which is one of the reasons I have not bought any in a number of years.

Another noticeable issue is consistent burns. I load with a lot of slow burning powders, for both handgun and high powered rifle, so I need a good hot detonation to initiate a consistent burn. In all of those instances I've used two identical load recipes, the one with CCI's will produce a normal burn and consistent velocities across the chrony, no soot or excessive powder skeletons. Not the case with Win. primers. I get sooty burns, large variations in velocities, and excessive powder skeletons. The Win has been so bad that I get skeletons blowing back all over my hands and face.

GS

GS

 

[918v]

WSP have a lot softer primer cups than CCI, hence more primer flattening. Federal primers are even softer. The smoke is caused by the lube.

 

[sexybeast]

In my experience lately CCI's are softer. I think I mentioned that I have used Winchester, CCI, Remington, and Federal in the past two months and at least at the moment I have been able to compare them all through two different guns, a glock 17 and M&P 9pro. Both have trigger jobs and when I do get a failure to fire/light strike its always a Winchester. Its easy to know this because Winchester Primers are a yellowish/brass color where the others are all nickel plated. Also other shooters experience the same! It seems that primers are always changing though.

 

[918v]

WSP are softer than CCI, current or past manufacture.

 

[sexybeast]

I've said my piece.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks Sexybeast and 918v

I appreciate your input. Will drop back to 3.6/3.7 grns Universal and see what I get. Like I said I am not freaked out by the smoke just wondering if maybe a little higher or lower might clean it up some. of trying some without I will load up some around that range and let you know if it seems to help. Might try it without lube. (hope it isn't painful )I think maybe 918v is right and the cups on the Winchesters flatten a little easier than the CCIs with the same powder charge.

Sexybeast
do you prefer the 231/HP38 or the Universal? (Can't get either right now but just curious)

Anybody used IMR 4756 or 7625 for lead bullets? I would have been able to order one of these two yesterday, have not checked today.
Thanks again everybody.

 

[sexybeast]

I prefer 231/hp38 but universal comes in a close second. I can't find either of these also. I do have some on order and pick up what I can to keep me going. Just as with primers I have to get what I can which is why the use of all the different primers I've tried lately.
231 is denser than universal and meters great. Universal also meters very good also. I would prefer to use either as their burn rate is quite close. Universal is just a little slower but for 125gr lead I use the same load-3.7gr.
I'm shooting up what I have left of loaded rounds and will have to start out with Titegroup which is all I have found lately. I've worked out a load of 3.4gr which seems to work well out of my glock 17 and m&p 9.
I've never used 4756 but a close friend really likes it. I guess its on the slow side. Slower than Unique from what I have read. He does use it for lead but he only shoots 40 so no word of success with 9. I think you can make it work.
Can't be too picky now when it comes to components.

Might try it without lube

probably not a good idea. Jacketed or plated with no lube. Lead needs to be lubed!

 

[Walkalong]

do you prefer the 231/HP38 or the Universal?

I like both, and they are not that far apart in performance in 9MM.

I haven't ever noticed where one brand of primer causes more smoke than another.

CCI primers are a bit harder than Winchesters, and in small cases with plated or jacketed the WSR has given me slightly more velocity than the CCI 500 using the same powder/bullet/OAL. I do not remember about lead.

probably not a good idea. Jacketed or plated with no lube. Lead needs to be lubed!

Exactly.

 

[TonyT]

I believe what you are observing is due to the difference in hardness of the primer cup. Federal, primers have the softest cup and CCI the hardest. Winchester primers are some where in between but quite a bit softer than CCI>

 

[sexybeast]

Too bad this isn't a local forum. I'd trade all my winchester primers for any CCI, Federal, or Remington.
From my recent experience, and I load and shoot 1-2k 9mm and 40 rounds per month, CCI are softer and therefore more reliable than Winchester. I'm only talking about small pistol primers! Not magnum, not large, 95% of my loading is with small pistol primers.
CCI use to be harder, they had a reputation of being hard, but not now. I'll trade any of those for my Winchesters! My 2cents.