CCW ammunition

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I carry factory, but I wouldn't hesitate carrying my reloads once I get a good combo of low flash propellant, accuracy, and premium JHP bullet heads(golden saber, gold dot, etc..) and have tested for these factors.

Like RCmodel said, if I shoot somebody it's going to be just that, I shot somebody. Why? Because he was trying to kill me. I'll worry about legalities after I'm done saving my life, thank you very much.
 
I used to feel the same way until I took Judicious Use of Deadly Force with Mr. Ayoob. He articulately and forcefully explained why this is a hideously bad idea. He walked us through the arguments that the DA/Prosecutor will (and has) use against you.

"So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury--this man spent HOURS in his basement concocting the perfect ammunition for killing human beings! I know, it seems strange, but he locked himself away from the world and loaded these 'dum dum' bullets into meticulously prepared ammunition--a quasi religious experience for him--we can only guess what shortcomings drove him to this point...Most bullets explode when they hit something, but when these bullets hit you, YOU explode!! Look at these photos of the victim of this man's wrath and loathing of humanity....<pics>...So, Mr. Casey, and let me remind you that you are under oath--was it a plan to execute this man using your special death recipe, cop killer dum dum ammunition, or was he just unlucky enough to wander into your view while you were having a bad day?"
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While "Mas" has certainly been in more courtrooms than I, I think that's a bit overdramatic to drive home his suggestion that you use factory ammo. It's only on good TV and bad movies where DA and lawyers "testify" like that. Let's just say that it's good to be able to say that what you have in your personal/home defensive weapon is a "known quantity" and leave it at that. If you are really justifiably confident with your handloads and can say for sure exactly what they are, I guess go ahead and carry them. I don't reload but if I did I'd still just stick with Speer Gold Dots.
 
Factory vs Handloads

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV (or the internet).

In my readings, there's a bit more to Ayoobs recommendation against reloads.

it's good to be able to say that what you have in your personal/home defensive weapon is a "known quantity" and leave it at that.
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Good to say *if* you get to say it. The vast majority of criminal trials I've seen, the defendant does not testify. Primarily because s/he's not limited to testifying only about what s/he wants to. Get on the stand to talk about your ammunition, you are also stuck with answering ALL other permissable questions.

If you are really justifiably confident with your handloads and can say for sure exactly what they are, I guess go ahead and carry them.
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Another difficulty, explained by Ayoob. You won't be allowed to say for sure what they are. The ammunition will be required to be tested (otherwise you're "saying" is just a self serving statement). And the testing will then destroy the evidence. No lawyer on either side is going to accept evidence destruction in the form of testing. Factory ammunition can be identified by lot number, and so virtually identical ammunition that is not evidence can be tested.

Again, to emphasize, I'm just relating additional research into Ayoob's writings. YMMV, but with all the good stuff out there, when you can get it, it'll be factory loads for me. FWIW

-jb
 
As was proven by the Harold Fish case, an aggressive prosecutor can/will make hay of your ammo choices. In Fish's case, his legal representation failed to push back on the prosecutor's representation of 10mm HPs as evil incarnate and indicative of ill intent, and partially as a result Harold finds hisself in da pokey for ten years and a half a million dollars in debt.
 
1. Federal HSTs
2. Speer Gold Dots
3. Federal Tactical Hydrashoks

I would never ever carry re-loads!
 
I carry factory only, save the reloads for the range. Most of us have our personal preference on carry ammo, but most any modern expanding ammo will work just fine. Try a few different kinds from reputable factories, and go with the one that works best in your gun.
 
I use only high quality, factory ammunition for self defense.

True, "a good shoot is a good shoot", but if you're on trial the DA and/or the grand jury didn't think it was a good shoot. Now it's not a good shoot unless and until a judge and jury say so. My lawyer will have enough to deal with, so I'd rather not have him also having to deal with the question of why I was taking the time and trouble to concoct special "super lethal" ammunition.

BTW, I've taken Mas' LFI-1 class as well.
 
I think some people are taking "reloaded ammo" as inexpensive professionally reloaded ammo, and others are talking about ammo reloaded by themselves.... that being understood...

I would never carry factory reloads for SD.... always carry the best you can

I always carry my own reloads.... same reason.... always carry the best you can...

I understand the legal reasoning behind not carrying your own reloads, as stated, but I hope no one here doesn't trust there own reloads enough to carry with them.... I have had WAY more problems with factory ammo than my own reloads (only 1 flaw in thousands and thousands of reloads.... and that was likely someone else who loaded it... not a problem with my SD rounds)
 
RoostRider said:
...I hope no one here doesn't trust there own reloads enough to carry with them...
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I trust my reloads completely. I shot tens of thousands of rounds of my reloads, in practice and competition, without a single malfunction. I still won't use my reloads for self defense for the reasons stated.
 
Southern Ohio , member

You don't trust reloads. I trust mind. Use hollow points.
 
One option for those who don't trust factory loads... pull the bullets and inspect then reassemble. Who's going to know? Maybe even switch to your favorite primer.
I'm not for more laws, but maybe we need some sort of precedence that shows handloads to be no more "deadly" than factory loads.
 
For me it's not about being "more deadly" or not.

I'm not a big time reloader, and I've probably loaded less than 1,000 rounds of pistol ammo.

I just had my first misfire... maybe it's because my primers are 15 years old, maybe it wasn't fully seated, but it looked like it took a good hit from the firing pin. The second hit set it off fine.

But that's one more misfire than I've had shooting factory pistol ammo (not counting rimfire).

A factory can probably tell you exactly how many misfires you can expect per million rounds of ammunition.

One in a thousand is way too high when my life depends on it.

I will only carry Premium factory ammunition. Federal, Speer, Hornady, Remington, or Winchester, usually the first three, but now I have Golden Sabers in my 9mm.
 
In a perfect world, it wouldn't matter. A clean shoot is a clean shoot, no matter what kind of gun you were carrying or what kind of bullet came out of it.

However: If there is grey area to be exploited, if the new D.A. has been sleeping on the couch, if there's any reason at all he wishes he could convict you on the facts, but can't, he will start to pick you apart in a way that a rape victim would never see. Not right. Not fair. Still very possible.

Ayoob says "use the same factory ammo as your local PD." But some fear you will be labeled as a 'wannabe cop' if you do that. Clint Smith says "Your first responsibility is to protect your life. Worry about the jury if you live." Which might well be true, doesn't mean you will enjoy the process of dealing with the jury. I don't dare put a percentage on how many clean shoots are over-scrutinized by over-zealous prosecutors, and it probably isn't many, but if it's YOU who has to deal with it, it won't be fun.

I don't know which would be easier to pick apart, the guy who used cocktail handloads for self defense, or the guy who used a factory load that has 'fang-face' in the title.
 
kludge said:
I just had my first misfire... maybe it's because my primers are 15 years old, maybe it wasn't fully seated, but it looked like it took a good hit from the firing pin. The second hit set it off fine.

But that's one more misfire than I've had shooting factory pistol ammo (not counting rimfire).
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I had a similar experience not long ago (my first in many years of reloading).... You just need better vigilance in your reloading.... many years and many thousands of rounds of ammunition (both manufactured and my own reloads) has taught me that properly built reloads are far more reliable, accurate and potentially more powerful than any factory loads.... don't let that one problem dissuade you from using reloads, let it make you a better reloader and your confidence in your loads will increase...

This is not to argue the legal side of it.... with that you should go with what you think is best, simple as that.... personally, I think an overzealous DA is going to try to tear you apart in any way he can (either fancy factory or hand loads).... the best defense for that is to be absolutely sure that if you ever need to use your firearm for self defense, it be as clear as possible that it is a good shoot...
 
Not to pick nits... but...

I prime by hand and check by feel that the primer is not too high or loose... I load single stage and charge each case one at a time then check powder level with a light for each batch.

I believe my reloads are high quality, but as an engineer with an understanding of MIL-SPEC and AQL and statistics, I will never likely have a large enough sample size to statistically guarantee that my ammunition will have an acceptably low failure rate for self defense.
 
I carry handloads exclusively. I've read volumes on why you should or shouldn't. What made the desision for me? One of my handloads.

I got a click when I wanted bang. When I took the round apart to figure out why, I found a primer with NO compound. That did it. I check every primer carefully now, and handweigh each charge. Basically assemble each round like it was for a national level match. Even though I have never had a "premium" factory round fail, it's always there in the back of my mind. YMMV.
 
Kludge,

The only reason a primer would fail once and then fire again would be because it was not seated completely. It was pushed into place by the 1st pin strike and fired with the second. Not being critical, just trying to help. :)
 
kludge said:
Not to pick nits... but...

I prime by hand and check by feel that the primer is not too high or loose... I load single stage and charge each case one at a time then check powder level with a light for each batch.

I believe my reloads are high quality, but as an engineer with an understanding of MIL-SPEC and AQL and statistics, I will never likely have a large enough sample size to statistically guarantee that my ammunition will have an acceptably low failure rate for self defense
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and you use 15 year old primers?.... see what I mean.... not sure what you need to draw a conclusion about reliability, but I know that factory loads have let me down more than my own, per capita if you will... clearly that information doesn't hold water for every reloader in the world, it all depends on how careful you are in all aspects of reloading.

Lets say we agree that you won't have a large enough sample of rounds (both factory and reloads) to "statistically guarantee that [your] ammunition will have an acceptably low failure rate for self defense.".... do you have a big enough sample of shooting factory loads to make this claim?.... so really all it needs to be is as good, or better than factory loads... right?

so we have to use other means to determine the most likely result and go from there.... use the information you do have....

Either way.... We know either you made a mistake in reloading (likely not completely seating the primer, or using ancient primers and/or powder), or the manufacturer of the primer did (hard to argue given they sat for 15 years).... but the primer being faulty is easily argued to be just as likely to happen in a factory load (unless you are deadset on using substandard components for reloading *read 15 year old primers* and you buy good quality factory loads to compare, which is what you have done here).... as with any component, what you can buy for hand loading is every bit the quality of that used by a factory (better than some factory loads)... therefore, they are out of the equation....

So now we are down to a variable of ONLY YOU making a mistake being the difference between factory loads reliability and yours.... again, arguably YOU can be MUCH more vigilant about the production quality of your SD rounds than a factory can.... you can hand weigh and confirm every round is set right, crimped right, and generally the best you can find anywhere... no comparison...

Honestly, I think you just need to put a few more reloads down the barrel being very careful about the build to get your confidence back...
 
factory only for carry. I have never had a factory load of any manufacturer not fire and I have fired many thousands.
9mm federal 124 HST
45 federal 230 hydrashock
10mm doubletap 155 gold dot
 
Store bought brand name ammo only for CCW.

I trust my reloads, but a sharp lawyer could roast you in court, accusing you of making your ammo extra lethal and that very well could cost you your freedom. I'd rather spend $25 at the store on a box of factory made personal defense ammo than give a lawyer Thousands of dollars to prove otherwise.

Why be a test case?
 
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