CCW ammunition

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CUrrently have Double Tap Speer Gold DOt
for .38 SPecl +P/S&W MOdel 60, 9mm Luge +Pr/CZ 75B,
and .45 ACP +P/1911 However, I'd be confident
of Speer's Gold DOt or other top quality JHPs by other
factories - I've fired enough of the Double Tap as well
as SPeer's offerings to ensure reliability in MY handguns.

Randall
 
Not to get away from the subject. But your saying that if I protect myself I'm going to have to hire a lawyer to keep out of prison?
 
Gold Dot factory in all my handguns (Gold Dot Short Barrel in my SW442 snubbie). Hornady TAP FPD 55-gr in my M4, Winchester Military Buckshot in my mossberg pump 12-ga.

I've read at least a half-dozen case studies of specific cases where DA's or prosecutors did make an issue of handloads (most of them written up by Mr. Ayoob, iirc). I don't load my own anyway, at present, although I may have to start.
 
vmfrantz said:
Not to get away from the subject. But your saying that if I protect myself I'm going to have to hire a lawyer to keep out of prison?
Well, it's sure happened before. If you shoot someone, you will be questioned by the police, you very well might be arrested, the shooting will be investigated, you may be charged with a crime (assault or manslaughter, depending on whether the guy lived or died), and you may just wind up being tried.

Let's face it -- you shot someone. That's not usually considered acceptable conduct. Now maybe your shooting him was justified. No doubt you will claim it was. But your saying that you were justified isn't always a free pass. Sometimes you may have to demonstrate in court with evidence that it was justified. You'll want a lawyer for that.

The point is that it's not always obvious that you've met the legal standard for using lethal force in self defense. Sometimes it is, and in that case, you can go home and everything's cool (except, perhaps, for the possibility of a civil law suit). But no one has to take your word for it being a "good shoot." So if the grand jury decides that there's probably cause to believe you committed a crime, or if the DA thinks he can convict you, you're going to have to defend yourself in court.
 
vmfrantz-

PLAN ON IT. I don't care what state you live in or what civil liability protection your state has passed. If you shoot someone in legitimate self-defense, you will probably be held for questioning, possibly booked for homicide. Even if they dismiss when the dust settles. The family of the victim will at least look into suing you, probably file suit, and you will need a lawyer to protect you from all of these things. Even if everything is dismissed.

If you carry, you should have umbrella insurance coverage, and you should have already consulted a lawyer, even if you can't afford to keep him on retainer. Lawyers run this planet. You will need one.
 
hunter25 said:
factory only for carry. I have never had a factory load of any manufacturer not fire and I have fired many thousands.

You're just lucky is all.....
 
My carry loads are all factory. I carry 124 gr. Remington Golden Saber HP's in 9mm or I carry 95 gr. Hornady HP/XTP in 9X18 MAK, depending on which firearm I choose to carry that day.
 
and you use 15 year old primers?.... see what I mean.... not sure what you need to draw a conclusion about reliability, but I know that factory loads have let me down more than my own, per capita if you will... clearly that information doesn't hold water for every reloader in the world, it all depends on how careful you are in all aspects of reloading.

And given a choice, how many people will carry factory vs. someone else's reloads?

No one in their right mind would carry someone else's reloads... then why carry your own?

Why is that? Because to be statistically significant for many handloader's low quantity production, we would have to shoot every round to determine whether or not it was good. This is not me talking, it's people with a lot better brains and understanding than I have. (I'm talking about failures on the order of 1:50,000 or 1:100,000.)

Lets say we agree that you won't have a large enough sample of rounds (both factory and reloads) to "statistically guarantee that [your] ammunition will have an acceptably low failure rate for self defense.".... do you have a big enough sample of shooting factory loads to make this claim?.... so really all it needs to be is as good, or better than factory loads... right?

The factory does this for me, which is why I'll pay >$1/round. I neither have the time nor the inclination... but I wonder if there's a difference in the AQL for WWB and premium self defense ammo. I would hope so.

I've heard anecdotal tales that 1:1,000 WWB will be a misfire... I've not been so lucky... I'd say it probably more like 1:10,000... And except for .22LR it'll be many more years before I hit that number. I guesstimate that I've shot 3-4,000 pistol rounds in the past 20 years. Before that it was all .22 pistol.

So what is an acceptable rate of failure for self defense ammo? And is it the same as WWB? I'd love to know.

I would also love somebody who loads and shoots 1,000 rounds a month to tell us what the failure rate for primers is, presumably the factory uses the same stuff.

so we have to use other means to determine the most likely result and go from there.... use the information you do have....

Either way.... We know either you made a mistake in reloading (likely not completely seating the primer, or using ancient primers and/or powder), or the manufacturer of the primer did (hard to argue given they sat for 15 years).... but the primer being faulty is easily argued to be just as likely to happen in a factory load (unless you are deadset on using substandard components for reloading *read 15 year old primers* and you buy good quality factory loads to compare, which is what you have done here).... as with any component, what you can buy for hand loading is every bit the quality of that used by a factory (better than some factory loads)... therefore, they are out of the equation....

Actually both the primers and the powder are ~15 years old, but I also have factory ammo of a similar vintage (in fact I recently sold a few boxes of original Black Talons :rolleyes:), and a lot of stuff that's much older... regardless, all of the ammo I reload is for plinking and practice, not loaded to full-power specs... and is of various calibers, making it even more unlikely that I can get past the statistics.

Since the round fired on the second strike I can only assume that both the powder and primer were good.

So now we are down to a variable of ONLY YOU making a mistake being the difference between factory loads reliability and yours.... again, arguably YOU can be MUCH more vigilant about the production quality of your SD rounds than a factory can.... you can hand weigh and confirm every round is set right, crimped right, and generally the best you can find anywhere... no comparison...

Here's where we agree... and disagree...

I am most obviously the reason for the misfire. I personally do all the steps you list, except for plinking ammo I refuse to hand weigh every charge, though I visually inspect every batch before seating bullets, and we can conclude that was not at issue... so your right, we're back to me, or a bad case...which again comes back to me. I inspect every case for splits, but I don't check the pockets other than the "feel" of the primer being seated, and most times I clean the pockets.

As for the disagreement... as any long time QC or production manager will tell, you can't inspect quality into a product.

[/quote]Honestly, I think you just need to put a few more reloads down the barrel being very careful about the build to get your confidence back...[/QUOTE]

It's not about confidence... I didn't lose any confidence in my loads or techniques, but granted I am always looking for more knowledge and experience; I was merely using it as a example of why not to use reloads for SD, and fortunately for me I don't have to rely on them for that purpose

... if I did it would take all the pleasure out of reloading.
 
kludge said:
.....AQL....

I've heard anecdotal tales that 1:1,000 WWB will be a misfire... I've not been so lucky... I'd say it probably more like 1:10,000.

I don't understand your abreviations completely, and I think you have a number wrong there... but, I see what you're saying.... and if you feel you can't match or exceed factory ammo for reliability in your reloading you are probably right.... I feel I can exceed factory reliability in my handloads, by the 'anecdotal' (because of our agreed lack of volume to produce solid stats) evidence that I have only had one failure in handloads in many thousands of rounds, and several factory load problems in a comparable number of rounds (sometimes a dud round, sometimes one that fires the second time, once a primer even popped out of a factory round and jammed my gun).... that compared to a mere one misfire with a handload (the only time I ever let someone 'new' run my press... lol)... now it would take a LOT of coincidence for me to have just got shafted by the odds that many times, and many many many more thousands of rounds to counteract the already set trend that factory ammo is not as reliable as my handloads...

If the trend shows a 10:1 failure rate of factory ammo over my personal handloads after 15,000 rounds.... well, it's pretty hard to imagine the odds are going to change in favor of factory loads no matter how many we shoot.... If you think differently, you are staring reason in the face, in favor of 'claimed stats' and anecdotal evidence about questionable reloaders (there may be a LOT of reloaders in those stats who don't put the care I do into my SD rounds)

If I were new to reloading, I would be with you 100%..... wait until you have proven yourself before you use your ammo in a critical situation (even hunting)... but I think your typical, vigilant, experienced reloader beats the factory for reliability...

I was very suprised to hear a reloader say they thought there rounds were inferior to factory loads..... but I guess some people reload for purely economic reasons, and clearly don't put the kind of detail into reloading that I do.... and if you're just making plinkers, and you know that, you might be a little more lax.... (I also inspect the flash hole on a case before reloading it... and everything else too..... even on my plinkers... no factory hand inspects every case and walks each round through every stage)

Maybe I'm too anal about it.... but my stats are pretty darn good on the reliability scale as a result (by all accounts better than factory), so I don't think so....

I don't use factory loads for the same reason you wouldn't use someone elses reloads... who knows how much care went into them? not me....

*I will admit to being a pretty slow reloader too though.. lol.. I can't believe what some people claim they can turn out an hour on the press*
 
orionhawk said:
I've read at least a half-dozen case studies of specific cases where DA's or prosecutors did make an issue of handloads (most of them written up by Mr. Ayoob, iirc).

That is irrelevant unless you know how many times someone has had this evidence used against them as opposed to how many times someone has had 'mean' factory loads used against them..... Does Mr. Ayoob go into that?

Or, I guess you could just go out and pick the weakest gun you can find, and load it with the weakest ammo you can get for it so that you can clearly demonstrate that you never really intended to hurt anyone with your gun, even in self defense....
 
I don't understand your abreviations completely

AQL = Acceptable Quality Level, instead of typing... I'll just give a few links...

http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/pmc/section2/pmc21.htm

Acceptance sampling is an important field of statistical quality control that was popularized by Dodge and Romig and originally applied by the U.S. military to the testing of bullets during World War II. If every bullet was tested in advance, no bullets would be left to ship. If, on the other hand, none were tested, malfunctions might occur in the field of battle, with potentially disastrous results.

[editorial comment: this is educational text, I'm sure they mean 'cartridge' when they say 'bullet']

Dodge reasoned that a sample should be picked at random from the lot, and on the basis of information that was yielded by the sample, a decision should be made regarding the disposition of the lot. In general, the decision is either to accept or reject the lot. This process is called Lot Acceptance Sampling or just Acceptance Sampling.

<snip>

In 1942, Dodge stated:
"....basically the "acceptance quality control" system that was developed encompasses the concept of protecting the consumer from getting unacceptable defective product, and encouraging the producer in the use of process quality control by: varying the quantity and severity of acceptance inspections in direct relation to the importance of the characteristics inspected, and in the inverse relation to the goodness of the quality level as indication by those inspections."

<snip>

http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/pmc/section2/pmc22.htm

Acceptable Quality Level (AQL): The AQL is a percent defective that is the base line requirement for the quality of the producer's product. The producer would like to design a sampling plan such that there is a high probability of accepting a lot that has a defect level less than or equal to the AQL.

Lot Tolerance Percent Defective (LTPD): The LTPD is a designated high defect level that would be unacceptable to the consumer. The consumer would like the sampling plan to have a low probability of accepting a lot with a defect level as high as the LTPD.

So here you have two competing ideals: the factory wants to ship product and the customer does not want, or can't accept failures.

In WWB ammo, one dud every 1,000 rounds might be acceptable, in SD ammo, it is most definitely not; this is where I get my assumption that the AQL's for WWB and Ranger SXT would be different. But since it's also likely that the two are loaded on the same equipment, or the same type of equipment, then what's left (if there's is a difference in the quality level) is a difference in component quality.

I worked as a design engineer for a company that manufactured gas ignition safety controls (basically the control that runs a furnace or water heater). If you've ever seen a house that was turned into match sticks by a propane explosion you will understand why we did a 200% inspection... not to inspect quality into the product, you can't do that... but it greatly reduces the probablility that a single control does not escape testing, but as mentioned in the quote above, you can't 100% test ammo. Testing at the end of the line does not make quality, but it helps you design a process that will produce quality stuff, whatever the "stuff" is.

The sampling and testing that is done in order to measure and (hopefully) to control the process. Each lot of primers is tested and each lot of powder is tested, etc., etc.

We have no guarantee that the primer manufacturer is sending the "same" primers to Winchester as it does to you and me... In fact, since the goal of the factory is to ship product, and not throw any of it away, I would bet that the Winchester ammo factory will only accept lots of primers below a specified failure rate for SD ammo, and each lot has to be verified and documented by OQC (outgoing quality control) at the primer factory, and IQC (incoming quality control) at the ammo factory. Lots that fail IQC sample testing will either be A) sent back to the primer factory B) used in WWB or C) sold to reloaders.

I have a box of WSP primers that are marked "commercial use only" I got them from a local retail store. Are they different from "non-commercial" primers? Not in construction, but I would wager they are of a different AQL, or that they were packaged for "commercial" and then failed at IQC, and were sold on the open market, or some small ammo manufacturer went out of business.

So do we really think there is a component cost difference between WWB and SXT? Not enough to justify a doubling of the retail price. I believe we are paying for the rejected lots, and advertising. The factory is not going to destroy rejected lots. The rejected lots, as one possible example, get sold in big lots to LE agencies for practice ammo at a stupid low price (I'm guessing 1/3 of WWB price, less than it costs me to reload), and are marked as such.

Even then, the factory isn't stupid, they aren't going to run the premium ammo line using WWB primer lots, that's just asking for rejected lots... but they might if they need to fill a LEO practice ammo contract.

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For those who are still with me reading all my drivel and think that 1:1000 would not be so bad think about it this way. Imagine the ammo manufacturer has an AQL such that there is a statistical failure rate of 1:1000 in every lot it ships. Mr. Retailer gets 1,000 rounds, 50/box. You have a 1:20 chance of a dud in your box. Now how do feel?
 
Personally, I don't carry concealed as its incondusive to my job and would spend most of its time in the glove box...waste of a permit if you ask me! However, I do keep a pistol in the house for self-defense and it is perfectly legal here in SC to keep a pistol in a closed glove box without a permit. For these purposes, a couple of points come to mind in making my selection.

1. Muzzle flash - A .357 mag or similar upper-powered round will kick up a big flash, perhaps blinding under the right conditions.

2. The BOOM! - Something too powerful might prove deafening. Again, I refrain from hot .357 and up. Even a .45 might be a little more than my ears can handle.

3. What if I miss? - I refrain from calibers and loads that are overpowered. I'm sure we all understand how dangerous a stray can be. A brick wall will stand a better chance protecting against a .38 special or .40 S&W than a .357 mag or .44 mag. For the same reason, I am very much against FMJ or JSP.

4. What if I don't miss? - This is where the fine balance lies. It is paramount that a bullet not have an overabundance of energy so as to over-penetrate without compromising its ability to neutralize an eminent and grave threat. A SJHP or similar ammunition is a necessity.

All of these taken into consideration, I use .40 S&W 135g Hydra-Shok. The ballistics are well documented. Factory loads are consistant, recoil is managable, and its close to what the local police use.
 
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