CCW and Probable Cause To Search

[DarthPaddy]

i'm fairly new to this forum and this question might have been asked before. Please indulge me one more time. Here's the scenario: Motorist is pulled over by police for speeding. Courtesies are exchanged and motorist declares up front they have a CCW (recent lessons being learned from officer Harless and Canton, Ohio, PD). Officer asks driver if a weapon is either on the driver's person or somewhere in the vehicle. The driver replies no to both. The officer requests to search vehicle and driver denies request and tells officer to get a warrant and explains to officer that he was pulled over for speeding and will continue to be compliant and behave properly but a search is out of the question without a warrant to search for a weapon. Would appreciate feedback with the full understanding that theoretical questions and the reality of the actual situation are mutually exclusive.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Not giving consent to search doesn't equal PC for a crime.

 

[Bigkrackers]

In states that require ccw notification do you have to do so if you are not caring at the time? Is the notification to inform the officer that you have a gun or just that you have a permit to carry a gun? It would seem to make more sense to inform if you are armed but if not, what difference does it make?

I'm not a lawyer but stating that you have a ccw but are choosing to not carry at that time is not probable cause to search your vehicle. That doesn't mean you won't be pulled out of your car and your car won't get searched anyway or even that you won't be arrested. It just means that you will have grounds for a lawsuit or other form of compensation when the search and or arrest are proven to be made without cause.

 

[Snowbandit]

Some states have written authority into their CCW laws allowing an officer to secure the weapon for the duration of the traffic stop. I personally believe this to be unconstitutional but it is what it is and, until successfully challenged, likely to remain. Many officers will then further violate their constitutional authority by running the weapons serial number. Simple possession of a weapon, especially by a CCW holder, does not create probable cause for a search of the vehicle nor of the weapon's serial number.

 

[Carter]

Some states have written authority into their CCW laws allowing an officer to secure the weapon for the duration of the traffic stop. I personally believe this to be unconstitutional but it is what it is and, until successfully challenged, likely to remain. Many officers will then further violate their constitutional authority by running the weapons serial number. Simple possession of a weapon, especially by a CCW holder, does not create probable cause for a search of the vehicle nor of the weapon's serial number.

There as supposed to be safeguards against an officer seizing a person's firearm in NC, but there are many ways around it. Officer safety being the big one. From my discussions with officers they almost always remove the firearm or the person from a car if the individual doesn't have a ccw. And one officer said depending on his "gut feeling" of a person he might disassemble the gun and empty the magazine.

NC is a duty to inform to state. It shows up when they run your plate and license. So the officer already knows. Even though I don't like it, if I get pulled over I'm going to inform him whether I have a gun or not just so I don't get harassed about not informing him.


Just because you've got a ccw from the state doesn't mean they now get to search your car when they pull you over. Now there are different simple searches or car frisks he could probably get away with making sure there are no weapons. Grabble areas and what not.

 

[shockwave]

Officer asks driver if a weapon is either on the driver's person or somewhere in the vehicle. The driver replies no to both.

My understanding is that you should only inform the officer if you have a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. If there's no weapon, then there's no need to discuss the CCW permit.

The officer is not interested in whether you have a permit or not. The officer will want to know if you have a gun that can be used to injure him. (Not a matter of law, as much as common courtesy.)

As always, if you have a firearm at hand, it's the polite thing to inform the officer and ask, "How would you like to proceed?" The Ohio situation was exacerbated by the fact that the owner was in a bad part of town with a pimp and prostitute in the vehicle.

If we're talking a general traffic stop, then the above applies.

 

[lemaymiami]

Snowbandit... have to disagree with you on one point.... You can argue all you want about the legality of searches for weapons in vehicles, that will always be a matter for the courts to decide. That part I can't disagree with.

If one of my officers ever came into possession of any firearm they'd be obligated to check to see if it was stolen - or they weren't doing their job properly, it's as simple as that. Yes, there are lazy cops who couldn't be bothered but I simply wouldn't put up with it. If I found out that one of mine didn't check every weapon that they had their hands on out on the street, we'd be having a talk (the second time disciplinary action would follow if I found out about it...). A quick check of the serial number in my state, Florida, wouldn't provide any info about anything other than whether the gun was reported stolen. Whether the one in possession of a stolen weapon was going to jail depended on the circumstances. All of us (and this is more than fifteen years ago) were well aware that hits on stolen guns weren't always 100% reliable since a lot depends on what agency, or what individual, made the entry. Any way you look at it, a reported stolen weapon needs to be taken off of the street. That's the kind of police work we all should applaud, particularly honest gun owners....

 

[jonmerritt]

Iowa, not required to notify if you are permitted and are carrying, or what ever. My experiance has been to tell them right up front. They have always said "ok" and went on from there without anything else mentioned about it. Didn't ask where it was, didn't want to secure it, nothing. Of course that contact has always been with the county boys, and they know who has the permits, they issue them.

 

[ckckck]

Since in my state (AR) the officer will find out about my permit when she runs my license, it is better to inform up front, even if I'm not carrying. Not informing raises suspicion (and in my case led to a call for backup). When I claimed not to be carrying, there was no follow up or request to search, etc. I said I only had to inform if I'm carrying. She said yeah, but when your permit shows up and you didn't inform, we'll always have a question in our minds. That makes the traffic stop take more time. I said, oh yeah, well what if I just go the speed limit, huh? huh? That'll fix you! She laughed and walked away. I got a warning on the speed.

 

[cane]

If one of my officers ever came into possession of any firearm they'd be obligated to check to see if it was stolen - or they weren't doing their job properly, it's as simple as that. Yes, there are lazy cops who couldn't be bothered but I simply wouldn't put up with it. If I found out that one of mine didn't check every weapon that they had their hands on out on the street, we'd be having a talk (the second time disciplinary action would follow if I found out about it...). A quick check of the serial number in my state, Florida, wouldn't provide any info about anything other than whether the gun was reported stolen. Whether the one in possession of a stolen weapon was going to jail depended on the circumstances. All of us (and this is more than fifteen years ago) were well aware that hits on stolen guns weren't always 100% reliable since a lot depends on what agency, or what individual, made the entry. Any way you look at it, a reported stolen weapon needs to be taken off of the street. That's the kind of police work we all should applaud, particularly honest gun owners....

Gee do you make your officers run checks on all other legal items? How about cell phones, personal electronics, lap tops, expensive watches etc.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The police can search your car at any time and for any reason.

They only have to say the three magic words.

"I smell marijuana"

SHAZAM instiant probable cause.

 

[cane]

What happens when you don't find any marijuana but do find, say, stolen property. Will you lie under oath about what you smelled? If not nothing you find in an illegal search is admissible in court.

 

[lemaymiami]

Cane, I'm long out of police work (ret. Oct 1995...) and in another line of work entirely.

You might want to sign up to ride with one department or other some time. Don't know if it would change your opinion but it might just open your eyes... Most departments encourage ride-alongs by anyone interested as long as they're decent folks. With my outfit you could pick the day and the shift but never which officer you'd be riding with. Most of the time it will be the routine stuff, every now and then it might be as bad as it gets... and observers were never allowed to carry while riding along.

By the way, most of the cops I knew and worked with are well aware that there's lots and lots of decent folks who own and carry firearms legally. We just never got to deal with many of them, all we ever saw were the other kind.... In the area of south Florida I worked in for 22 years (I was the senior lieutenant on a 100 man city department when I retired out) I expected three cops a year to be killed on the job (that doesn't count angry girlfriends or wives, bad personal habits -only those killed by active shooters or in car crashes... in the combined area of Dade and Broward counties). That was the count year after year. On two or three occasions that I recall three officers were killed in one incident by the same shooter(s). About halfway through my career I quit going to officer's funerals. They're for the living and not much help at all for the dead.

That's why I've spoken up about this. Generally I won't speak up about legal issues, but some things need to be said....

 

[cane]

Yea right, you can't enforce the law by breaking it. I retired in 2001 as deputy chief of a 150 officer department. I taught in BLET and in service training. I don't need a "ride along" to know what are good and legal policies and procedures.

 

[beatcop]

op, you sound like you have the grasp already. No crime detected, other than a traffic violation, then that's it....in theory.

 

[bigfatdave]

Most of the time it will be the routine stuff, every now and then it might be as bad as it gets... and observers were never allowed to carry while riding along.

Wait a second.

I should volunteer to hang out with a guy who needs a gun, but I have to be unarmed?
How about ... ... no

 

[lemaymiami]

Come on Dave, where's your sense of humor? Of course there were always a few cops that never, ever wanted an observer aboard. That sort of stuff cuts both ways....

 

[bigfatdave]

I have zero sense of humor when it comes to disarming citizens or conducting warrantless searches.

If one of my officers ever came into possession of any firearm they'd be obligated to check to see if it was stolen - or they weren't doing their job properly, it's as simple as that. Yes, there are lazy cops who couldn't be bothered but I simply wouldn't put up with it. If I found out that one of mine didn't check every weapon that they had their hands on out on the street, we'd be having a talk (the second time disciplinary action would follow if I found out about it...). A quick check of the serial number <snip>

... is an unnecessary and unconstitutional search of private property.

and observers were never allowed to carry while riding along.

then why is the cop armed?

 

[Bubba613]

I should volunteer to hang out with a guy who needs a gun, but I have to be unarmed?
How about ... ... no

When I went on a ride along with one of the local officers, a customer of mine btw, I was worried about dept policy on carry, which I think is no. I decided better to ask forgiveness than permission and really no one needed to know.
When I got in the car the cop told me, "btw, there's a loaded Glock 22 in the glove compartment and the shotgun detaches like this, in case you need it."
I didnt worry after that.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Running a serial number is not an unconstitutional search of private property.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Is that pot I smell?

Step out of the car sir!

 

[bigfatdave]

Running a serial number is not an unconstitutional search of private property.

temporary confiscation for the purpose of running the # is.
I am not armed on the whim of the local constabulary, I went to a lot of trouble and accepted an annoying amount of infringement to get my carry permit, and at this point, I am not about to put up with being questioned or treated like a "bad guy" by some overzealous cop just because I happen to be armed.

 

[lil_jimmy_norton]

Running a serial number is not an unconstitutional search of private property.

Oh really?

Courts have upheld that inside our cars is our private property.

So if an officer comes to your house on an unrelated call it's OK for them to check serial numbers on all your property to make sure it not stolen?

Slippery slope my friend, you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Snowbandit]

Snowbandit... have to disagree with you on one point.... You can argue all you want about the legality of searches for weapons in vehicles, that will always be a matter for the courts to decide. That part I can't disagree with.

If one of my officers ever came into possession of any firearm they'd be obligated to check to see if it was stolen - or they weren't doing their job properly, it's as simple as that. Yes, there are lazy cops who couldn't be bothered but I simply wouldn't put up with it. If I found out that one of mine didn't check every weapon that they had their hands on out on the street, we'd be having a talk (the second time disciplinary action would follow if I found out about it...). A quick check of the serial number in my state, Florida, wouldn't provide any info about anything other than whether the gun was reported stolen. Whether the one in possession of a stolen weapon was going to jail depended on the circumstances. All of us (and this is more than fifteen years ago) were well aware that hits on stolen guns weren't always 100% reliable since a lot depends on what agency, or what individual, made the entry. Any way you look at it, a reported stolen weapon needs to be taken off of the street. That's the kind of police work we all should applaud, particularly honest gun owners....

Doesn't matter if you agree or not. Checking the serial number is a search and searching anything requires probable cause. Simple possession of a firearm by a citizen does not constitute probable cause therefore the search is illegal.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't want stolen guns on the street any more than the next guy but, there is a right way to address the issue and violating a constitutional principal isn't it. In fact, only a lazy or otherwise inept cop would try to cheat the justice system in this way.

 

[GEM]

Google the ACLU bust card and download the PDF.