CCW and Probable Cause To Search

[android]

If one of my officers ever came into possession of any firearm they'd be obligated to check to see if it was stolen - or they weren't doing their job properly, it's as simple as that. Yes, there are lazy cops who couldn't be bothered but I simply wouldn't put up with it. If I found out that one of mine didn't check every weapon that they had their hands on out on the street, we'd be having a talk (the second time disciplinary action would follow if I found out about it...). A quick check of the serial number in my state, Florida, wouldn't provide any info about anything other than whether the gun was reported stolen. Whether the one in possession of a stolen weapon was going to jail depended on the circumstances. All of us (and this is more than fifteen years ago) were well aware that hits on stolen guns weren't always 100% reliable since a lot depends on what agency, or what individual, made the entry. Any way you look at it, a reported stolen weapon needs to be taken off of the street. That's the kind of police work we all should applaud, particularly honest gun owners....

Gee do you make your officers run checks on all other legal items? How about cell phones, personal electronics, lap tops, expensive watches etc.

Wow, just wow.

So possession of a firearm is probable cause that the firearm is stolen?
What about any other object with a serial number on it?

The Constitution, please read it.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Oh really?

Courts have upheld that inside our cars is our private property.

So if an officer comes to your house on an unrelated call it's OK for them to check serial numbers on all your property to make sure it not stolen?

That's not what I was saying. The cop has to legitimately come in contact with the item. He can't just take it from you without just cause. However, running a number itself is not a search. For example, if you park you car on the street and he walks up, looks at the VIN and runs it or looks in the window and runs the serial number from property you have left in plain view, he has not conducted an illegal search......


I'm with Cane...Only a lazy cop would not run the serial number on a weapon or any other often stolen item like electronics that he has legitimately got in his hands. By legitimate, I'm not talking about BS tactics such as "smelling marijuana" and other things that have been suggested, though.

 

[Snowbandit]

That's not what I was saying. The cop has to legitimately come in contact with the item. He can't just take it from you without just cause. However, running a number itself is not a search. For example, if you park you car on the street and he walks up, looks at the VIN and runs it or looks in the window and runs the serial number from property you have left in plain view, he has not conducted an illegal search......


I'm with Cane...Only a lazy cop would not run the serial number on a weapon or any other often stolen item like electronics that he has legitimately got in his hands. By legitimate, I'm not talking about BS tactics such as "smelling marijuana" and other things that have been suggested, though.

Vehicles are a whole different animal and are regulated completely different. First of all, there is no constitutional protection recognizing the right to own a vehicle. Modern vehicles have, what's called, a "public VIN" (the number on the dash board that's visible from outside). It's illegal to cover up a public VIN and this number can be inspected by anyone anytime the vehicle is in a public place. Older vehicles don't have public VIN's and one would have to search sometimes to locate them. Firearms also do not have public serial numbers and a search always requires probable cause.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

You do not need PC to run a firearm's serial number if the number is in plain view or you have legally came into contact with. I'm just talking about the act of running the number, not the way the officer comse into contact with it. Sure, they have to have PC to disarm an legally armed citizen, but you guys are implying that it is an illegal search to merely run a serial number.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Cane, I'm long out of police work (ret. Oct 1995...) and in another line of work entirely.

You might want to sign up to ride with one department or other some time. Don't know if it would change your opinion but it might just open your eyes... Most departments encourage ride-alongs by anyone interested as long as they're decent folks. With my outfit you could pick the day and the shift but never which officer you'd be riding with. Most of the time it will be the routine stuff, every now and then it might be as bad as it gets... and observers were never allowed to carry while riding along.

By the way, most of the cops I knew and worked with are well aware that there's lots and lots of decent folks who own and carry firearms legally. We just never got to deal with many of them, all we ever saw were the other kind.... In the area of south Florida I worked in for 22 years (I was the senior lieutenant on a 100 man city department when I retired out) I expected three cops a year to be killed on the job (that doesn't count angry girlfriends or wives, bad personal habits -only those killed by active shooters or in car crashes... in the combined area of Dade and Broward counties). That was the count year after year. On two or three occasions that I recall three officers were killed in one incident by the same shooter(s). About halfway through my career I quit going to officer's funerals. They're for the living and not much help at all for the dead.

That's why I've spoken up about this. Generally I won't speak up about legal issues, but some things need to be said....

I hear what you are saying, and sympathize with it completely.

However ... how many of those officers were shot by CWP holders? Any?

How may "stolen weapons" were in the possession of CWP holders? Any?

 

[NavyLCDR]

You do not need PC to run a firearm's serial number if the number is in plain view or you have legally came into contact with. I'm just talking about the act of running the number, not the way the officer comse into contact with it. Sure, they have to have PC to disarm an legally armed citizen, but you guys are implying that it is an illegal search to merely run a serial number.

Just curious...have you ever heard of the term "scope" in regards to search and seizure? For example, you have a search warrant for a stolen piano. It is beyond the scope of the search warrant to look in a dresser drawer, or under a bed for the stolen piano because it would be impossible to hide a piano in a dresser drawer or under a bed.

I believe the same would be true for conducting a search with the serial number of a firearm to determine if it was stolen with no probable cause to indicate the firearm was stolen.

EXAMPLE: You stop me for speeding. I tell you I have an unloaded handgun in my glove box before I reach into the glove box to retrieve my registration and insurance. Can you determine the serial number of the gun? NO. Because it is in the glovebox, NOT in plain sight. Under the rules of Terry Stops you now have legal authority to conduct a search and temporary seizure of the handgun for "OFFICER SAFETY" only. This CAN NOT become a search for evidence of another crime, because seizing my lawfully carried firearm (in Washington State) can not possibly uncover any additional evidence that I was speeding.

In addition, there is NO BENEFIT to officer safety to run the serial number of the gun. How does that make the officer any safer when you already have control of the gun in your possession? Running the serial number of the gun which came into view ONLY because of an action LIMITED IN SCOPE to officer safety violates the 4th Amendment in that you are attempting to gain evidence of a crime for which you have no probable cause. The SCOPE of the initial search and seizure of the firearm was for "OFFICER SAFETY" ONLY, NOT to gain evidence of the crime of possession of a stolen firearm.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Yes, I am familiar with "scope"...I also know that a savy cop could memorize that serial number pretty easily and run it thru NCIC as soon as you are released.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Yes, I am familiar with "scope"...I also know that a savy cop could memorize that serial number pretty easily and run it thru NCIC as soon as you are released.

Running the serial number is just a power trip for the cop, nothing else. So what if the serial comes back as stolen? A good defense lawyer will get it thrown out as a 4th Amendment violation whether the cop did it in the presence of the subject or after the subject was released, UNLESS the subject consented to the search. For me, during a legal detainment, sure, you can take my gun for "officer safety", but I'm going to tell you as you take it that I do NOT consent to any check of the serial number. Just because I have nothing to hide is no reason for me to waive ANY of my rights.

 

[Strykervet]

When you get pulled over, the police are not your friend.

Tell them the minimum, know your rights, and don't answer questions without a lawyer. Never consent to a search. Never consent to anything you don't have to, in which case they won't ask for consent. Driver license, insurance and registration. I have to show my permit only if asked for it, and that is exactly what I will do. When he asks if I have the rocket launcher or needle in my pocket (like they all do --do they program this stuff, or do they actually talk like this at home?) then I will say yes, I am armed.

I had a friend get pulled over for lights or some such. They searched the car by consent and found old useless stuck together rolling papers in the seat. Obviously several years old. He just bought the car, an old car, days before. He was taken to jail, police raped, then charged with paraphenalia. Being poor and unable to afford a lawyer, he was intimidated into pleading guilty. He also lost the car and his job over this. He got a record, and now everytime he gets pulled over, that is all the consent they need. Whether it is Constitutional or not, they do it, and they get away with it. Don't be that guy.

Sadly, you can't trust police anymore. Perhaps you never really could, but it is worse now. Because they have time and again been deemed unnaccountable to the public, it has attracted the very worst candidates. The school bully. Sadists. Megalomaniacs. Hotheads. You get the picture. Daniel Harless is a perfect example. I find it interesting and disgusting at the same time that the military, whose job is killing, would NEVER accept the behaviour that permeates the police departments in this country. Many American cops have far more in common with third world middle east corruption than they do the worst unit in the army. I know this from experience.

Had they wanted public trust and cooperation, they could have had it. They could have dealt with their trash instead of protecting it, keeping it on the payroll for years when it is obvious they are criminals. They could have held their officers to the same standards as any citizen (because that is all they really are). They could treat the public with respect and not fake manners. They could act decent.

You know, George Carlin had it right. He said they should make decency and honesty prerequisites for employment --you never know, it might just work. It hasn't been tried yet.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

No more debate from me....I will say that while I've never had a gun stolen. However, I hope that if I ever do that the cops are doing what I consider their job to recover it.

 

[cane]

Let's play "what if", suppose an officer siezes your legally owned pistol during a traffic stop. What happens if it doesn't have a serial number that he can find?

 

[mljdeckard]

Why is he looking for it? His reason to TEMPORARILY take the gun is to ensure his safety, NOT to find a reason to incriminate you. And seriously, the way I have seen too many cops handle guns, I don't want him holstering/unholstering, clearing, or otherwise meddling with it.

A routine traffic stop does NOT give police probable cause OR reasonable suspicion that the gun is stolen, nor that any other crime has been committed. I have NEVER had a cop run a serial number on my gun (on the few occasions I have been stopped, and even fewer that they decided to hold onto it,) because they know that where guns aren't registered, and permit holders pass a daily background check, there is no REASON to run the number in the first place.

 

[zxcvbob]

Let's play "what if", suppose an officer siezes your legally owned pistol during a traffic stop. What happens if it doesn't have a serial number that he can find?

That's an interesting question. I carry a Ruger Security Six, and the SN is covered up by the grips.

ETA: actually, there is a little window in the grips for the SN, but I put an address label in there. You have to take the grips off to get to the SN, but it's not "changed, altered, removed or obliterated", it's just not in plain sight)

 

[NavyLCDR]

No more debate from me....I will say that while I've never had a gun stolen. However, I hope that if I ever do that the cops are doing what I consider their job to recover it.

My television set was stolen. You won't have a problem if the police check the serial number of yours in your house, then, will you. The cops would just be "doing what I consider their job to recover it."

 

[don]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. When I was in law school back in the 70's, A cop could not search your car because he smelled pot. If a trained dog detected the odor of pot, that was grounds for a search. Has the law changed?

 

[BFC]

With ZERO instances of CHL holders shooting cops during traffic stops, with tens of thousands of permit holder and probably hundreds of thousands of traffic stops, over the years, involving CHL holders I see very little, FACT BASED reason to invoke "Officer safety" to disarm a licensed citizen. It's about power, not safety. Power corrupts, all there is to it.

 

[mljdeckard]

don -Utah actually has precedent where the smell of raw marijuana is probable cause to search.

 

[Jeff F]

Let's play "what if", suppose an officer siezes your legally owned pistol during a traffic stop. What happens if it doesn't have a serial number that he can find?

Many years ago I was pulled over in Salinas for a traffic violation early in the morning. I had an old JC Higgins pump shotgun in the back seat in its case in plain view. Cop sees it and asks me if its a gun, I tell him its my shotgun. Next he has me out and sitting on his bumper while he gets it out and trys to find the serial #. So he arrests me and I am charged with something like being in possession of a firearm with a missing or removed serial #. I got to spend a few hours at the jail in Salinas and was OR'ed and giving a court date. I got an attorney and at my first court date I plead not guilty and was giving another date for a preliminary hearing.

At the preliminary hearing the DA showed the judge the evidence against me and my lawyer showed them the gun control act of 68 and that before that date a lot of manufactures did not put serial number some guns and showed that my shotgun never had a number and no number was removed. The judge found no crime had been committed, the case was dismissed and I was free to go and walked out of the court with my shotgun and lawyer. This happened about 30 years ago when I was about 20. I probably had a lawsuit but never pursued it. It cost me 500 dollars in attorney fees to get out of that scrape.

 

[avs11054]

Well, I got bored reading all the crazy talk on the first page, so I didn't read any comments on the second page. Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. Just like a license plate, police are able to run the serial number of guns they come into contact with ( the only case law I could find on this matter is People v Delong). Cane, if you were deputy chief of a department and wouldn't be mad if your officers didn't run a gun, that is sad.

To the OP, assuming that EVERYTHING else was kosher and just going off of the information in your post, an officer could not search your car based on the information you gave. However, there are six exceptions to the search warrant requirement that apply to vehicles, so if the officer has any one of these six, he can search your car.

Search incident to arrest
Exigent Circumstances
Contraband in plain view
Frisk of the car
Consent to search
Inventory search of the car

 

[avs11054]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. When I was in law school back in the 70's, A cop could not search your car because he smelled pot. If a trained dog detected the odor of pot, that was grounds for a search. Has the law changed?

Yes

 

[zxcvbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by don
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. When I was in law school back in the 70's, A cop could not search your car because he smelled pot. If a trained dog detected the odor of pot, that was grounds for a search. Has the law changed?

Yes

I don't think it has, I think police are just allowed to get away with crap like that due to lazy judges (or lazy or incompetent defense attorneys)

 

[avs11054]

I don't think it has, I think police are just allowed to get away with crap like that due to lazy judges (or lazy or incompetent defense attorneys)

Well, you can THINK whatever you want. The fact is that courts allow officers to search a car in which they smell marijuana in. This is supported by case law. I don't see how ruling this way makes the judges "lazy."

 

[zxcvbob]

Is the officer an certified expert on marijuana? What credentials does he have for identifying it by smell? (if not but it's allowable anyway, why do we have K9 units?)

The problem is any cop can say "I smelled pot" or "I smelled alcohol" without any corroborating evidence, and he gets to come up with that probable cause after-the-fact. I don't do drugs and I don't drink much, but it's still an affront to my constitutional rights even if it's unlikely to affect me directly.

 

[cane]

LEMAYMIAMI, how would you handle it if one of your officers contacted you that he was trying to check a firearm serial number, per your instructions, and couldn't find one?