CCW - and the law

[jaydog]

Hi folks,

New member here, I've been "lurking" and reading for a while. I have a serious question that I'd welcome any and all input about. I've read repeatedly statements along the lines of, "I'm a CCW'er, but I don't carry at work because it's not legal", "Leave weapon in car because it's not legal", "I could lose my job if I got caught carrying" etc.

Here's what is a little confusing to me - If you, as an individual, have made the decision that you're willing (and trained) to take another's life in defense of your own, and that the best means of defending your life in a potentially fatal situation is a gun, why would you forfeit willingly the right and means to defend your life because it's not legal or against corporate policy?

If you've made the decision that you're willing to kill in self defense (an admittedly serious commitment) why would you allow the law to dictate when you cannot follow that choice? If you choose to follow a company policy, say, that prohibits guns in your workplace, and another "post office employee goes berserk" event occurs, what good is your lack of a gun? You're legal, but potentially dead... "Thank goodness he/she didn't break the law - but we sure will miss them."

Maybe this has been discussed before, or maybe it's a taboo topic, but I've not really read any discussions on the topic.

 

[Car Knocker]

Probably because most CCWers are law-abiding citizens and tend to obey the law. Otherwise they would just carry without a CCW.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Willingly?
Well for my job I have to cross state lines (does that fit if DC isn't a state?) into a state that doesn't allow guns, doesn't recognize CCW and sure as hell doesn't recognize RKBA (Our lovely capitol, Washington DC).

In addition I have to pass through several checkpoints filled with detector equipment and armed (???) guards before I reach my desk.

Getting nabbed -just once- would mean an end to my life as I know it as surely as if someone killed me.

I suspect you can understand why I'm moving away from all that in July. And for those of you out there who say "hey I can't just leave my job, house, etc." well that's EXACTLY what I'm doing so wish me luck finding a new job.

(edit: keep in mind firearms aren't the only reason I'm moving, but it is part of the whole "quality of life" package that has me saying enough is enough with regards to the metro DC area).

 

[El Tejon]

jaydog, welcome to THR.

Yes, I do not understand the whole "guns in cars" meme of the gun culture. Pistols belong on belts, not in BMWs.

 

[1BLINDREF]

CCWing at work is not illegal, its just against company policy.
Personally - I'd rather be alive and unemployed, then dead and employed.

 

[romma]

so wish me luck finding a new job.

You got guts ZeSpectre! Best of luck!

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Chance one will have to use a gun to defend oneself at work: Maybe 1 in 100,000. Some might even say 1 in 1,000.

Chance one will have to bring consistantly bring home a paycheck to feed the family, provide shelter, etc: Damn close to 1 in 1.

Strangely, most people see the risk of being unarmed as small when compared to the value being able to support their families financially. Go figure.

If you choose to follow a company policy, say, that prohibits guns in your workplace, and another "post office employee goes berserk" event occurs, what good is your lack of a gun?

I'll turn this around. If you choose to lose your job over carrying a gun and can afford to feed the kids or pay your mortgage, what good does carrying a gun all the time do you?

 

[1BLINDREF]

All I'm gonna say is concealed means concealed.

 

[CajunBass]

When I signed on with this outfit, I agreed to abide by their rules. One of their rules is that I can't bring a gun to work. It's right there in black and white. I knew it when I signed on. Since I wanted to work here, and really don't see any real danger in being unarmed while here, I agreed to accept that rule. It's called a "condition of employment."

 

[TallPine]

5th amendment

 

[Caimlas]

All I'm gonna say is concealed means concealed.

+1. I used to carry daily at a facility where firearms were banned. They had no law allowing them to do so (according to state authority), and they had no strip search at the door; if some criminal could walk through with a gun, I was sure as hell going to do so as well. Nobody ever knew, or at least said anything.

When I signed on with this outfit, I agreed to abide by their rules.

You've got the option to not agree to certain rules while signing the contract. At this particular job, when I signed the sheet that said "i will abide by rules x, y, z, et cetera as outlined in the handbook" I crossed out the ones dealing with firearms, dated and initialed above it before signing. They didn't notice.

Anyway, not like it would have mattered either way for me there. Right to work state and all... willful termination as they please.

 

[DragonFire]

Like others have said already, I like my job, and I like the ability to live my life at the finacial level I've become accustomed to.

I do not feel threatened on a daily basis (I live in a small town without much violent crime) and have balanced my choice of income vs choice of CCW.

But because I had chosen to not carry a firearm at work, it does not mean that I am total unarmed or otherwise defenseless. I think just being aware of my surroundings and aware of what could happen (even if unlikely) and having some kind of plan of what to do in an threatening situation adds a level of protection that many of my co-workers don't have. It may not be a balance you would choose, but I have.

Plus, I'm not sure I would say that I've decided a firearm is the best self-defense tool. A handgun is a compromise between power and concealability. It may not be the "tools" I have on hand that will make the difference, but the mindset I have.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

The last company I worked for had a crappy no-guns policy. NOT ONLY were guns prohibited from within the buildings, but they were also prohibited from being kept in your car in the parking lot. That last one pissed me off. The buildings were key-card access, so I was not very worried about needing protection inside the doors, but on the way to and from work is another story. Consequently, I carried to and from work, and my gun was locked within my trunk (legally) while I was at work. When I rode the motorcycle and had no place to lock a gun... that's for me to know and for you to never find out.

I am now unemployed, and I carry anywhere I damn well please ...ahem, legally, of course

...when I signed the sheet that said "i will abide by rules x, y, z, et cetera as outlined in the handbook" I crossed out the ones dealing with firearms, dated and initialed above it before signing. They didn't notice.

Caimlas, I like your style!!

I have thought about that for my next job. I guess I would really be called to task if they did notice and pointed me towards the door.

 

[Mortech]

I like my job , CCW is OK and usually expected during hunting season and last month those of us with CPLs were told quietly to make sure we carried due to threats from a former employee toward the company , he was terminated because he assaulted another employee on the job .

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Here's what is a little confusing to me - If you, as an individual, have made the decision that you're willing (and trained) to take another's life in defense of your own, and that the best means of defending your life in a potentially fatal situation is a gun, why would you forfeit willingly the right and means to defend your life because it's not legal or against corporate policy?

Your one question requires two answers, because "against the law" is very different from "against corporate policy."

Some people choose to obey company rules because they need the job. Some obey company rules because the company makes them sign a personnel policy statement saying they will, and they honour their word. I am such a person. However, in my case I chose not to sign the personnel policy handbook and, instead, to resign from a new job I had started before they informed me there was a no weapons policy in effect. I was not willing to work their closing shift unarmed, but I value my word and I also will not perjure myself in that way.

As to the "against the law" part -- that's easy. It's a felony conviction if you are caught. Aside from the prospect of doing hard time in a prison, you also forfeit your right to own or even to touch a firearm ever again in your life. I guess I'm a coward, but I'd rather disarm where the law requires, and do my best to simply avoid such places or situations. You make it sound as if breaking the law is a trivial matter. It isn't to me, but your mileage may vary.

 

[obxned]

We obey stupid laws because we're the ones who obey laws, often even stupid laws enacted by people that have no clue as to what is Constitutional, moral, or in the best interests of the people who they are supposed to be representing. Heck, some of us even pay all of our taxes, and on time.

 

[TCUGLOCKER]

Concealed means concealed...nuff said. When you pop the disgruntled psycho even though guns are "against company policy," I bet you'll have a nice little addition to your Christmas bonus, not to mention some "favors" from the secretaries. This might not actually be true, but I carry all the time and no one knows, out of sight, out of mind. Just don't tool the forum while at work searching for an answer

 

[Bailey Guns]

I once took a temporary job in a high-visibility sales position. "NO GUNS" on the property rule for employees. Everyone knew I was a 15 year LE veteran. Most people suspected I carried and many mentioned it to me. I would just reply with a smile and say, "Now that would be against company policy". After dealing with some knuckleheads one day the GM told me he felt better knowing I probably had a gun...said he just didn't ever want to see or hear about it. That's all he ever said. Now, if something happened and I used it, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been so supportive and would have defaulted to company policy and thrown me under the bus.

 

[The Unknown User]

To answer the question in the original post, it would be an oxymoron to fit the requirements to be granted a concealed weapon carry license only to turn around and exhibit the behavior that would exempt you from said license.

 

[ctdonath]

why would you forfeit willingly the right and means to defend your life because it's not legal or against corporate policy?

Competing harms.

While being dead is obviously worse than being unemployed, the latter is little less a serious matter and is far more likely than the former. Everyone has to do their own cost-benefit & average-payoff comparisons; the resulting choice may not coincide with the choices with others under usually different scenarios.

 

[Z_Infidel]

I'm willing to kill in order to protect my life or the life of someone I care about whether I'm carrying a gun or not. Self defense is a right no person, government, or corporation can take away. Carrying a gun is something that MIGHT give you a better chance of successfully defending yourself in SOME situations. It is also optional and a personal choice. It is certainly related to the right (and willingness) to protect yourself, but they are not one in the same.

Whether you agree with your employer's policy regarding weapons or not, it is your personal choice to be employed there. Either comply with the policy or risk the consequences of non-compliance, but it is still your choice. It really has nothing to do with legality. Now, policies that prohibit keeping weapons in personal vehicles on company property are another matter... in that case, legality does enter the equation IMO.

 

[jaydog]

Thanks folks. There are obviously differing, and strongly held, views! It's been enlightening to read them. I apologize if the tone of my original question led anyone to believe that I was advocating violating any laws - I'm a strong believer in following those precepts set down by our legally elected officials (and voting the bozos out when they get stupid!). The issue does, however, still pose some questions in my mind, but questions with potential built in conflicts are always worth pondering.

 

[ctdonath]

As a sobering point of comparison: the odds of getting killed just driving to work are notably higher than the odds of having to use a gun at work. If you're that worried about having to defend yourself in the workplace, you probably shouldn't be going there in the first place.

(Don't get me wrong: I fully respect the "concealed means concealed" mindset. One must evaluate his own situation and odds and principles - and respect that others must do the same and may come to different conclusions.)

 

[blinkin357]

I'll be leaving my firearm at home

It's a tough situation for many of us. I may live to regret carrying at work but so far, so good. My employer has no stated policy but can terminate any employee without cause at any time. So I'd expect termination rather than mercy if they ever discover my firearm. Like others, I'd be hard pressed without this paycheck.

An added problem is a new Florida law against having firearms in employees cars in an employers parking lot. I don't know if the employer has to tell us about a parking lot restriction or not. It makes me wonder what good it is to even have a permit any longer.

After carrying for decades, you've got me thinking and I may stop carrying out of fear of job loss.

 

[gezzer]

You hear this from NEW to carry license states. They accepted CCW law with all the Nanny .gov anti carry exemptions and think they have made progress.

Now they can carry sometimes, somewhere, and the rest of the time to bad you are now a felon.

All they did was bring attention to themselves and their Scardy Cat cops cannot wait to bust them for any little violation they can think of because they really know that anyone who has a permit is not a danger and they can have no problem safety wise like they would have with REAL CRIMINALS.

Law abiding, How about the constitution? .GOV should have to follow it.