CCW if everybody carried?

[JellyJar]

I CCW rather than OC because I believe that it gives me a tactical advantage over OC. That is that the bad guys wouldn't know in advance that I carry and I could, hopefully, surprise them. However, it has occurred to me that if so many people carried concealed criminals would just start to assume that all of their potential victims were CCWing and then we would loose the element of surprise. And without the element of surprise we might as well OC as it would be easier, more comfortable and we could carry bigger handguns to boot.

In such a situation, other than carrying a BUG concealed, would you OC or would you continue to CCW?

I would OC, but of course if I carried a BUG it would be concealed.

Take care

JJ

 

[Steve C]

Open carry can make you a target. There have been more than one case in the paper here in AZ where open carry is more common that a person was targeted and robbed of their handgun. Just cause you're armed doesn't give you any advantage over someone who gets the "drop" on you first unless you can draw and shoot as fast as Bod Munden and perhaps a handful of other pistoleros.

 

[451 Detonics]

I have read it is estimated only about 40% of those with carry pemits carry 100% of the time. So I think the element of surprise would still apply. Also OC sets you up for a gun snatch, especially in a crowd.

 

[iblong]

I would probabally still carry concealed Its not my intention to have people
feel nervous or unsettled around me nor do I want attention drwan to me.
I also would rather a bad guy think Im unarmed as apposed to a major threat
and just take me out.It might just give you the opportunity with the right timing and mind set to at least make a go of it.
Bob

 

[Jed Carter]

It will never come to pass that everyone carries, hence there are plenty of easy targets for criminals. I think that a lot of CDW license holders carry a weapon in their auto but do not keep a pistol on their person, so the percent of license holders that actually carry may be well under 40%. IF the premise was even close, I would still conceal carry, too many uptight people as it is.

 

[smince]

I have read it is estimated only about 40% of those with carry pemits carry 100% of the time.

I sincerely doubt it is that high. Heck, I know cops who won't even carry off-duty.

All the CCW holders I know only carry in the car or 'just in case' (what ever that means ).

 

[451 Detonics]

The figures I read may have included car carry....

Personally I am paranoid enough that I not only carry 100% of the time, I carry at least 2 guns 100% of the time.

 

[nalioth]

Open carry can make you a target.

Wearing nice clothes can make you a target.
Wearing jewelry can make you a target.
Driving a nice car can make you a target.
Being in the wrong neighborhood can make you a target.

Crime doesn't just happen to open carriers.


I'd be willing to bet that any open carrier who got robbed wasn't paying attention to their surroundings like they should have been.

 

[hermannr]

Personally, I carry what I call "open", but could be considered concealed because my holster completely encloses the weapon. (it is a hunting holster, and a 6" colt revolver is a large weapon).

Because of this possible "concealed" interpertation, and because you must have a permit if the weapon is loaded in a vehicle here in WA, I do have a concealed permit. Never been asked for it, but I do have one.

 

[45Fan]

Wearing nice clothes can make you a target.
Wearing jewelry can make you a target.
Driving a nice car can make you a target.
Being in the wrong neighborhood can make you a target.

Crime doesn't just happen to open carriers

So dont make yourself a target..
I also doubt that OC will become the norm anytime in our lifetime. As far as making yourself a target, nalioth is correct, many things may contribute to making yourself a target.
Situational awareness, well thought out actions, and knowing the areas that you are in go a long way in keeping a low profile.

 

[smince]

I'd be willing to bet that any open carrier who got robbed wasn't paying attention to their surroundings like they should have been.

OC or CC, I'd be willing to bet no one can stay switched on 24/7.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

However, it has occurred to me that if so many people carried concealed criminals would just start to assume that all of their potential victims were CCWing and then we would loose the element of surprise.

I assume you are thinking that if the criminals simply assume their target was armed, they would arm themselves, start a holdup with a gun drawn and that the concealment would only slow down your draw?

I have thought of that scenario, and it starts to look very much like an escalation scenario. My feeling is that A) it is unlikely due to how many CCW permit holders don't even carry all the time they can and B) I feel that most people are basically good people, thus the good guys will outnumber the bad and even if a BG gets the jump on you, there are decent odds for there to be a concerned and armed citizen to be nearby.

 

[Onward Allusion]

JellyJar

CCW if everybody carried?

If I were a BG and was out to do harm, the first person that gets shot will be the guy OC'ing. The truth is that not everyone carries even if they have a CCW/LCH permit. Even if everyone CC'd not all BG's are willing to kill someone for property or money. If everone CC'd it would increase the risk to the BG and they will think twice before committing the crime because they have a better chance of doing time or end up dead.

 

[BossHogg]

I've never understood the ideal of open carry. I wouldn't want anyone to know I'm armed, to me OC invites trouble instead of perventing trouble. If you OC it's got to be seen and can't even be covered with a sport coat.

Maybe for a BBQ or or gathering of like minded friends but not in general public, just my .02 take it for what's worth.

 

[NMGonzo]

I live in an OC state.

I have a HARD time OC'ing outside the shop.

I have my 1911 today on a OWB belt covered by a hawaiian shirt.

But anyone that knows belts will know that it is a gun belt.

 

[One-Time]

actually when its publicised that many people are carrying, criminals look for easier law breaking than robbery, if you OC they will look elsewhere as you arent easy

 

[2wheels]

I don't buy into all that "OC makes you a target, it ain't tactical" stuff.

I occasionally OC and I have no problem with other people who OC, but I prefer to CC for one very simple reason.

I just don't like to be hassled during my day, I've never once had the cops called on me or anything crazy like that, but I have had a couple people come up to me and talk to me about it. Nothing bad, one lady was actually a fellow CCWer and was asking questions about OC.

My buddy who was OCing in a McDonalds and had the cops called on him by a woman who lied and said he was waving his gun around, long story short she was almost cited for filing a false police report and nothing happened to him.

I don't want my time wasted. If I'm out somewhere it's for a purpose and I don't want to entertain whatever pro or anti-gun person wants to strike up a conversation and I definitely don't want the cops called on me! I wouldn't get in any legal trouble since I'm not breaking any laws, but it's MY time and I don't want to spend it talking with Mr. Policeman.

 

[GRIZ22]

However, it has occurred to me that if so many people carried concealed criminals would just start to assume that all of their potential victims were CCWing and then we would loose the element of surprise.

You can't honestly think that everyone would carry do you? You can fantasize that but in reality a lot of people would never carry for a whole bunch of reasons other than not be supportive of the 2A.

However, there are some things that happened that support the fact that criminals are concerned about who's carrying and who's not. Back in 1994 there was a rash of tourists getting carjacked in FL. What carjackers were zeroing in on was cars with plates that started with Z. All rental cars in FL had plates that started with Z at the time. This was about the time that FL became a shall issue state and the criminals were worrying that they'd get shot trying to carjack a FL resident. If they wanted to carjack someone just pick a car with a Z plate as its a rental and probably a tourist and this greatly reduces my chance of getting shot. Do it at a rest area with few people around and your chaces of getting away increase. After a few homicides (unfortunately), LE wised up to what was going on and they changed all the rental cars to a regular plate. In the meantime they had a FL Highway Patrol unit at every rest area on the interstate (later replaced with pricate armed security paid by the state) until this license plate stuff was resolved.

Criminals don't want to take a chance getting shot. OC will scare off many but if you OC and you got what the criminal wants he'll come after you.

I lived in AZ in the late 70s and OC was the only way a citizen could carry then but you didn't see it often in town. Even where its legal most people don't know it is and will call police and take up your time. There are places that allow CC but ban OC because it upsets patrons and creates issues for the management.

 

[Fishslayer]

Somebody has a sig line I really like.

"If five percent of the deer shot back, nobody would hunt."

Maybe not 100% accurate, but I get the idea. In my area CCW is not anything I'm going to be worried about anytime soon. Unless you're an elected official or annoying right wing radio talk show host, you ain't gettin' no permit.

Here in the PRK it's legal to "unloaded open carry." THIS I have no clue about. It's debated a lot, but to my thinking it makes one a real target. The BG knows you have a gun & also knows it's unloaded. The bangers don't carry their guns in the open and they are definitely not unloaded.

 

[JellyJar]

Everybody, please note that this is a what if question. What if so many ccw that the criminals would just assume that any potential victim was armed and would almost always be right!

I don't have a link ( I can remember many things I read years ago but I can't remember where I read it ) but I remember once reading years ago that in parts of Israel so many people carry handguns that they didn't bother to conceal them.

 

[gbran]

If unrestricted Vermont style ccw were the law of the land, you'd be amazed how few people would actually carry.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There have been more than one case in the paper here in AZ where open carry is more common that a person was targeted and robbed of their handgun.

Good. Finally someone will be able to post actual examples where this has happened in reality! I can't wait to see the examples, please post them!

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”174 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

Page 33:

Fact: Most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources (39.2%) or
through family members or friends (39.6%).

The facts are that armed citizens deter crime. The criminal is not going to know if the citizen is armed or not unless they see the gun. Open carry deters crime. Concealed Carry gives you a defense, only after the crime has started. There is absolutely no reason for a criminal to attack a visibly armed citizen when they can wait two minutes for the armed citizen to leave and the next person who does not appear to be carrying a gun to come along, or they can go down the street one block to the next convenience store where there is no one visibly armed. Why, when 99.9% of the population does not carry a visible gun would the criminal attack the .1% that does? They don't want to get shot. They don't want to get caught. Attacking the .1% of people who visibly carry guns does not further either one of those goals.

It is much, much easier for a criminal to steal an unattended gun or to simply buy a gun or have one bought for them than it is to take one from a citizen who is walking around with it on their belt. This whole idea of the open carrier being a target makes absolutely no sense whatever. Criminals are looking for the easiest way to get what they want - the guy with the gun on his belt is not the easiest way.

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Feel free to conceal carry and hope you can get it out in time to defend yourself against an attack that has already started. That's your choice. I don't care one way or the other. I'll carry my gun visibly so the criminal knows that I am a hardened target and leave me alone and wait for me to leave and you to come along. Plus, it shows the public that it should be perfectly normal for a normal American going about their normal daily lives to have the means available to protect themselves with. Concealed carry does nothing to present a positive image of guns, because nobody can see it.

 

[mljdeckard]

I believe the deterrent factor of showing a gun at least equals the advantage lost with the element of surprise.

 

[smince]

Most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources

Those guns have to be stolen from somewhere.

It may not be prevalent yet, but I think the more common OC becomes, then so will robbing the OC'er.

How many people do you see open carrying in a cheap $5 nylon holster from the gun show bargain table as opposed to a good quality retention holster? For me it's about quite common place, even among LE.

Couple that with less-than-optimum situational awareness and it is a problem waiting to happen.

I have no real trouble with those who OC, if they are aware of the possible risks, but it's not for me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Those guns have to be stolen from somewhere.

And a criminal could just as easily catch a cc'er by surprise, put a gun to their head, frisk them and take their gun along with their wallet.