CCW if everybody carried?

[cpuckett812]

Im waiting on my newly applied for CCW permit to show up in the mail. In the meantime, Ive OC'd a few times during my wait, and I must say that I cant wait for that permit to show up. Although I support the idea of OC and support those that do, I personally feel that forewarning people of my defensive capability does not necessarily work in my favor. I end up being nervous when people are behind me, or get too close. Its a feeling I hope to avoid when I get to CC and look like "everybody else". If a threat knows you are armed, he will make sure he is too.

 

[Sam1911]

If I were a BG and was out to do harm, the first person that gets shot will be the guy OC'ing.

BGs out to do harm (we're talking robbery, rape, assault -- common street crime, not the one-in-ten million mass-murdering nutjob) aren't looking to shoot someone. That doesn't help their goals. Shooting someone in the course of a robbery, to effect an escape, or even to punish someone who "disses" them instead of complying certainly does happen, but starting off a confrontation by killing someone is pretty uncommon.

If shooting someone and then robbing them was the common problem, carrying a gun would be irrelevant. A criminal could just pick you off from across the street and rifle the corpse at their leisure.

Criminals, unarguably, do choose their targets. We talk about "failing the victim profile" a lot 'round here. What makes you appear to be a hard target, vs the next guy who looks lost, bewildered, inattentive, distracted, weak?

Some presume that wearing a gun openly, by itself or in conjunction with an air of alert observant consciousness, indicates that someone has the capacity and willingness to cause great harm or death to any attacker. Thus presenting a rather extremely non-optimal victim profile. Just short of a badge and a blue uniform, there would seem to hardly be a less inviting target.

Some suggest quite the opposite: That openly carrying a gun makes you more likely to be attacked, either due to the value of the object you carry for all to see, or due to the implied threat the carrier presents to the bad guy in an altercation.

Both sides have some plausibility, and like everything else, you have to decide what kind of attack you're expecting to come under. ()

Do you trust in, and want to take advantage of, the benefits to failing the victim profile that openly carrying a gun might give you?

Do you rather prefer to blend completely into the crowd of potential victims and accept that an attack may come, but you may still have the ability to draw and deal with it (even, perhaps, with "the element of surprise!")?

Hmmm... food for thought. Yummy!

 

[nalioth]

I end up being nervous when people are behind me, or get too close.

This is where a training course will help.

If a threat knows you are armed, he will make sure he is too.

Have you read any of this thread?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Just short of a badge and a blue uniform, there would seem to hardly be a less inviting target.

Actually Sam1911, badges and uniforms seem to make individuals MORE of a desirable target over Joe Citizen open carrying:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78088192.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009292688_apwalakewoodshooting5thldwritethru.html

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf
Page 31:

57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985, Department of Justice

When an armed criminal meets a cop and the cop knows they are dealing with an armed criminal - the criminal has two choices, attempt to escape, of which shooting at the cop is probably an integral part of that plan; or risk being arrested.

When an armed criminal sees an armed citizen - the options are much more open to the criminal; the best chance the criminal has of avoiding arrest or getting shot at is to simply walk away, or flee if they have gotten close enough; anything other than fleeing or walking away greatly increases the criminal's chance of getting caught or getting shot.

When an armed criminal sees a concealed carrier - there is little benefit to the criminal walking away or fleeing because there is nothing there for the criminal to see that indicates a hardened target.

Like you said, though, the person paying absolutely no attention, with a dazed and confused look on their face presents a much more attractive target than the person walking with purpose, aware of their surroundings (gun or no gun).

 

[Loosedhorse]

I prefer CC. Asking if I would prefer OC "if everyone carried" is a bit like asking me if I'd prefer carrying a machinepistol if the MA State Police was gving them away free to private citizens...

But probably yes to both.

 

[KimberUltra]

Personally I'm all for open carry, just for the fact that if they have the drop on you or not they are still going to think twice about going for your gun. They don't know if you are trained in hand to hand combat or they don't know if they even have the drop on you or you know he's behind you. Also, i think anyone who OC's should be using at least a level 2 holster to prevent someone grabbing your gun in the case you might not be paying attention.

It would be for the same reasons every cop I have ever seen has a level 2 and a lot of them a level 3.

Simple fact is, If i was trying to rob someone, I wouldn't mess with anyone who had a gun on their hip. It's a safe assumption he knows how to use it and it would be far to difficult and dangerous to try to sneak up on him without him noticing. I would just find an old lady or someone smaller than me who doesn't have a gun on their hip.

On another subject, could carrying openly cause more people to draw and/or shoot their weapon when they are justified in doing so? For example if some guy around me in a store or something is acting odd and maybe trailing me or staring me down and he can't see my concealed gun, I still wouldn't have any justified reason to believe he was a threat to my life. But if you are openly carrying and someone is doing the same thing there's a much higher chance he might be a threat to me.

Can anyone see that being an issue ?

 

[NavyLCDR]

On another subject, could carrying openly cause more people to draw and/or shoot their weapon when they are justified in doing so? For example if some guy around me in a store or something is acting odd and maybe trailing me or staring me down and he can't see my concealed gun, I still wouldn't have any justified reason to believe he was a threat to my life. But if you are openly carrying and someone is doing the same thing there's a much higher chance he might be a threat to me.

Can anyone see that being an issue ?

It's not an issue in the 42 states that do allow open carry.

 

[smince]

Originally Posted by smice

At least spell my name right

 

[Lord Teapot]

even if oc became law here, i'd still cc. then i just look like your average skinny white guy, not cowboy norris with a pair of 9's on his hips. oc makes your weapon vulnerable to being neutralized before you can react.

 

[NavyLCDR]

not cowboy norris with a pair of 9's on his hips.

Statements like that do absolutely nothing to promote the pro-gun cause. Whose side are you on? If you don't like open carry, then don't. But leave such childish remarks to the Brady Bunch and their cronies, please.

 

[PabloJ]

Why are you native-born Americans so paranoid? United States is not Mexico!

 

[One-Time]

@Lord Teapot, if you let a BG that close, you failed situational awareness 101

 

[Onward Allusion]

http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=126800

cpuckett812
Im waiting on my newly applied for CCW permit to show up in the mail. In the meantime, Ive OC'd a few times during my wait, and I must say that I cant wait for that permit to show up. Although I support the idea of OC and support those that do, I personally feel that forewarning people of my defensive capability does not necessarily work in my favor. I end up being nervous when people are behind me, or get too close. Its a feeling I hope to avoid when I get to CC and look like "everybody else". If a threat knows you are armed, he will make sure he is too.

Get a Level III rated duty retention holster if you're going to OC. Sure, it'll cost a little more than a Fobus...

 

[jeffegg2]

I can see no tactical advantage to Open Carry.

 

[Cosmoline]

Why are you assuming that open carry would be limited to handguns? Open carry, ideally, would permit loaded long guns to be carried. Between a concealed sidearm and a carbine ready to roll, which would be better in a fight? There's not much contest. Soldiers and even many LEO's these days, rely on the openly carried long gun, not on the concealed carry handgun.

In contrast, UNLOADED openly carried handguns on the belt, which is what many states seem to restrict you to, are at best useless and at worst an attraction for theft.

I know of no example of anyone in this state being mugged for their bear gun. It would take a mugger who was either completely insane or had very big brass ones.

 

[nalioth]

Why are you assuming that open carry would be limited to handguns? Open carry, ideally, would permit loaded long guns to be carried.

Some states do not restrict the carriage of long guns specifically, such as Texas.

In contrast, UNLOADED openly carried handguns on the belt, which is what many states seem to restrict you to, are at best useless and at worst an attraction for theft.

You mean that more states than California do this to their residents?

 

[Cosmoline]

I think it depends on whether or not you have a CCW license in some states, but the OC laws are a real patchwork quilt.

Does Texas allow loaded long guns to be carried everywhere? My impression was you could NOT open carry in Texas.

 

[wally]

Some states do not restrict the carriage of long guns specifically, such as Texas.

While strictly true, sling a rifle over your shoulder and take a stroll downtown. How far do you think you'd get before the cops have you on the ground in response to a "man with a gun" call? OTOH, in Bandera probably nobody would think anything about it.

Not the way it should be, sad but true, reality bites sometimes!

 

[nalioth]

Does Texas allow loaded long guns to be carried everywhere? My impression was you could NOT open carry in Texas.

Concerning long guns, your impressions are wrong.

The lack of a law in Texas allows you to carry a long gun in any condition you desire (loaded, unloaded, hidden or open) anywhere that firearms aren't prohibited.

Now, if you point it at folks, you're going to jail.

You may also face "disturbing the peace" charges, but there isn't a law against the actual carriage of long guns, other than those that restrict firearms in general.

 

[Jim NE]

I kind of agree with Boss Hogg.

Here's my concern about open carry - the visuals could create an intimidation factor that could be used nefariously by bad guys, and would not be good for society. The point of carrying guns is to protect one's self, not convey a powerful message to the world. (I should mention, I'm ALL FOR concealed carry. It's reduced the violent crime rate by leaps and bounds)

 

[rich642z]

I cc all the time even at home. You never know when a <deleted> is going to kick your front or rear door in to do harm to me or my family members. these criminals do not give a damn about who they are going to hurt. But the victims with a leaglly possed handgun,and the bgs die because you protected yourself and yes,you have to go to court and listen to some of the bull on what happened that time you had to fire at a bg. with all the fed,state and local laws we have to go thru these days,it is a wonder why these gbs a bgs still shoot at kids who do not want to be in a gang. No where is safe at this time and point now. Do what you have to do to carry. If you are a target,protect yourself by any means possible so you can live another day.

 

[nalioth]

the visuals could create an intimidation factor that could be used nefariously by bad guys, and would not be good for society

. . and when did society stop enforcing the law?

 

[leadchucker]

Providing an adversary with knowledge of one's defensive capabilities compromises those defensive capabilities.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Providing an adversary with knowledge of one's defensive capabilities compromises those defensive capabilities.

and in the vast majority of instances, deters the attack and causes the adversary to move on to an easier target. Two targets are within one city block of each other. One target has the known ability to kill you in defense. The other target does not. Pretty easy choice to make, even the dumbest of criminals can make. The hardened, career criminal did not become a career criminal by making dumb choices.

 

[KimberUltra]

It's not an issue in the 42 states that do allow open carry.

True. My state is technically open carry, but you'll get arrested before you made it 10 feet off your property with a handgun showing. We have several shootings a week here, I just paranoid that people will not protect their openly carried guns and give even more guns to criminals.