If you're a Concealed Carry Permit holder, can you carry in a US Post Office? I always have/do, but I noticed a sign today about no firearms or "dangerous weapons" in the Post Office. Didn't say anything about CCW though. Just wondering. I still plan to carry, there's a lot of scum between my office and the PO.
CCW in a Post Office?
- Thread starter rondog
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WoofersInc
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My understanding is that the post office is considered a "federal" facility and falls under federal guidlines. It is a federal regulation against carrying in the post office. I have seen posts before that state there is a clause about "lawful purposes" but I'm not willing to be the guinea pig for a federal firearms case.
RNB65
Member
This has been discussed many times and there is no clear answer as the federal code seems to contradict itself a bit in regards to Post Offices. And there probably won't be a clear answer until a CCW holder gets arrested in a USPO and a court decides the matter.
The guys at The Gun Zone used to have an article on their site vehemently defending the legality of CC in a Post Office. But they've recently removed it and replaced it with a note sugesting that they might be wrong.
The guys at The Gun Zone used to have an article on their site vehemently defending the legality of CC in a Post Office. But they've recently removed it and replaced it with a note sugesting that they might be wrong.
I did do a search first, but found nothing right off. There's no sign on the door, no metal detectors or permanent guards in place, it's not a school or a courthouse, so according to Colorado CCW law it seems to be OK. I'm just not going to worry about it, unless somoeone can quote me a Federal Law about it.
Bushwhacker
Member
Call the postal inspectors office.....and ask them.
:banghead:
:banghead:Z-Michigan
Member
My research has shown the same as RNB65's post. Basically, that there is a general exception for possession of a firearm for lawful purposes (like mailing an unloaded rifle to someone who can legally receive it), but there is total uncertainty as to whether CCW, even though lawful under state law, would fit within that exception. Personally, I would not take the risk. (However, none of my local post offices are in dangerous areas.)
Solo Flyer
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Punch *67 and then dial the bureaucrats number, rondog.
That'll block their prying eyes from Caller ID.
Of course you still won't get a straight answer.
No one seems to know the answer.
ServiceSoon
Member
Letter to US Attorney General?
Aguila Blanca
Member
There is no conflict in Federal law. Carry of any kind in postal facilities is illegal.RNB65 said:
A previous poster referred to the section of the U.S.C. that has an exception for "lawful purposes." Unfortunately, that entire portion of the U.S.C. does not apply to postal facilities, which fall under their own section of the U.S.C. And that section clearly prohibits firearms in postal facilities ... with no exception for "lawful purposes."
There used to be a link on the Errornet to an article by a NY attorney with a lengthy explanation as to why carry in postal facilities was legal. His entire argument was based on the U.S.C. applicable to Federal facilities in general, and he appeared to be unaware that BY LAW the section he was citing does not apply to postal facilities. A number of people contacted him, and shortly thereafter his post evaporated. Here's the link to where his post used to be located. It has looked like this for about two years: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html
Here's the actual law. The part prohibiting guns is about 2/3 of the way down: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/usps39cfr232-1.html
Solo Flyer
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This gentleman ,Rob the Lawyer(great name!), wishes to offer his opinion:
http://rlwesquire.wordpress.com/
Robert Louis Williamson’s Weblog
Home About Area of Practice WJNT 1180 AM Radio Show June 9, 2008
Question about concealed carry in a Post Office
Recently I’ve been asked about carrying a firearm into a Post Office. Most people think this is illegal because most Postal facilities have a “No Guns Allowed” sign on the front entrance. I did some research on this, and found that it is in fact, NOT illegal to carry a firearm into a Post Office as long as certain conditions are met.
The statute in questions is 18 U.S.C. 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal Facilities.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
However, if we look further down to the exceptions under (d), we find:
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
As you can see in (d)(3), it is lawful to carry a firearm into a Federal facility incident to hunting or “other lawful purposes.” Just what are “other lawful purposes” though? If you carry a gun into a Federal facility with the intent to commit a crime therein, then it would seem pretty obvious that you are not engaged in “lawful purposes.” However, if you carry a concealed weapon, with a valid concealed weapons permit, and you are not intending to commit any crimes therein, you should be well within the meaning of “lawful purposes.”
This does not mean that you won’t be harassed or even arrested for carrying a concealed weapon or other dangerous weapon in a Post Office. We often tell people that law enforcement can do anything they want until you can have a Judge tell them they can’t. Some law enforcement officers do not know the full scope of where citizens can legally carry firearms, and thus it leaves room for error.
This “lawful purpose” exception does not apply to Federal Court facilities though and you are prohibited from carrying there, even with a valid permit.
18 U.S.C. 930(g)(3) - The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
http://rlwesquire.wordpress.com/
Robert Louis Williamson’s Weblog
Home About Area of Practice WJNT 1180 AM Radio Show June 9, 2008
Question about concealed carry in a Post Office
Recently I’ve been asked about carrying a firearm into a Post Office. Most people think this is illegal because most Postal facilities have a “No Guns Allowed” sign on the front entrance. I did some research on this, and found that it is in fact, NOT illegal to carry a firearm into a Post Office as long as certain conditions are met.
The statute in questions is 18 U.S.C. 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal Facilities.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
However, if we look further down to the exceptions under (d), we find:
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
As you can see in (d)(3), it is lawful to carry a firearm into a Federal facility incident to hunting or “other lawful purposes.” Just what are “other lawful purposes” though? If you carry a gun into a Federal facility with the intent to commit a crime therein, then it would seem pretty obvious that you are not engaged in “lawful purposes.” However, if you carry a concealed weapon, with a valid concealed weapons permit, and you are not intending to commit any crimes therein, you should be well within the meaning of “lawful purposes.”
This does not mean that you won’t be harassed or even arrested for carrying a concealed weapon or other dangerous weapon in a Post Office. We often tell people that law enforcement can do anything they want until you can have a Judge tell them they can’t. Some law enforcement officers do not know the full scope of where citizens can legally carry firearms, and thus it leaves room for error.
This “lawful purpose” exception does not apply to Federal Court facilities though and you are prohibited from carrying there, even with a valid permit.
18 U.S.C. 930(g)(3) - The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Solo, that is essentially the same as the one Attorney Firriolo posted a few years ago. It is incorrect. The US Postal Service is, by law, exempt from that portion of Federal Law. I have edited my post above with a link to the Federal law controlling postal facilities. There is NO exception for "lawful purposes."
Solo Flyer
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Right,I'm not going to dispute that.
I'm just showing that the beat goes on.
"Rob the Lawyer"is still giving out this advice to his radio and 'net audience and quoting that Statute.Note the date just 2 months ago.
Many people are probably heeding his advice and carrying in PO facilities.
I've never wanted to be a test case and I've never carried postal in 14 years.
It's one of my few concessions.
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 39, Volume 1]
[Revised as of July 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 39CFR232.1]
[Page 55-58]
TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE
You can't leave it locked in your truck? What is an "official purpose"? I assume it's not the same as a "special purpose"? I thought there was something in the USC that stated a "No firearms" sign must be posted at the entrance of any building where they are banned.
[Title 39, Volume 1]
[Revised as of July 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 39CFR232.1]
[Page 55-58]
TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE
You can't leave it locked in your truck? What is an "official purpose"? I assume it's not the same as a "special purpose"?
I thought there was something in the USC that stated a "No firearms" sign must be posted at the entrance of any building where they are banned.freakshow10mm
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CFR cannot contradict USC. It recognizes this in the above quoted section of 232.1 sub 2. USC will always trump CFR.
The citation for the CFR is totally irrevelent. USC stands. Lawful purposes exemption applies, totally legal if your state does not prohibit it.
freakshow10mm, I'm afraid that you're wrong. It's not a question of conflict between the United States Code and the Regulations of the United States Postal Service as set out in the Code of Federal Regulations.
You see, under 39 USC 410, most federal law, including federal laws applicable to federal property, don’t apply to the exercise of powers by the Postal Service. Therefore, the Postal Service has the authority to adopt a regulation prohibiting the carrying of firearms on Postal Service property. Essentially, the United States Code provides that the USPA is free to set its own regulations, notwithstanding other provisions of the USC, except to the extent a particular provision of the USC is specifically designated as applicable to the USPS. So since 18 USC 930 is not specifically applicable to the USPS, it doesn't apply. Rather 39 CFR 232.1 would.
All of this is discussed in greater detail at http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening
You see, under 39 USC 410, most federal law, including federal laws applicable to federal property, don’t apply to the exercise of powers by the Postal Service. Therefore, the Postal Service has the authority to adopt a regulation prohibiting the carrying of firearms on Postal Service property. Essentially, the United States Code provides that the USPA is free to set its own regulations, notwithstanding other provisions of the USC, except to the extent a particular provision of the USC is specifically designated as applicable to the USPS. So since 18 USC 930 is not specifically applicable to the USPS, it doesn't apply. Rather 39 CFR 232.1 would.
All of this is discussed in greater detail at http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening
Valkman
Member
We can carry in the PO in this town because some guys pushed it and there are no "gray areas" anymore. We can OC or CCW in the Library and PO and CCW in the DMV. It can be done.
maestro pistolero
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If there's anything less likely than needing to pull a gun at a post office, it might be getting searched for one in a post office. Nuff said.
No! It is ILLEGAL! Period!
Anybody who says otherwise, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Don't take my word for it. Feel free to call the Postal Inspection Service. They will be happy to explain it.
The PIS has the highest conviction rate of any federal law enforcement agency. Get caught carrying a firearm on USPS property, and you'll find out the hard way just how efficient they really are.
Anybody who says otherwise, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Don't take my word for it. Feel free to call the Postal Inspection Service. They will be happy to explain it.
The PIS has the highest conviction rate of any federal law enforcement agency. Get caught carrying a firearm on USPS property, and you'll find out the hard way just how efficient they really are.
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