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CCW in a Post Office?

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regardless of the differing views of the lagality of PO carry, I personally just avoid going to the actual PO, which really isnt very hard, and eleiminates the issue. Now that you can pay for shipping, and even print shipping labels online, order flat rate boxes to be delivered to your door, gas stations and such having liitle PO branches in them now (similar to UPS stores), etc, unless you actually have a P.O. box you need to get too, there is very little need to physically go into an actual PO anymore that I can see.

Obviously, YMMV, but I havent been in one in over 5 years or more that I can think of, and I use USPS for almost all my shipping needs, as they are cheap and pretty efficiant, and I have yet to have them damage or lose anything shipped through them. Cant say the same for UPS or FedEx though. Also, when I ship via USPS with signiture required, they actually get an adult signiture, unlike UPS and FedEx who seem to like to not bother, and just drop stuff on peoples porch, or give it to a random neighbor, etc.
 
The applicable law is 39 CFR 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

<snip>

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

Since according to the CFR, weapons are prohibited in the Post Office, you are no longer there for 'any lawful purpose,' so that particular exception no longer applies either, thus subjecting you to the prohibition of the USC. I don't see a conflict.

With that being said, I am not aware of any (and I have looked) published case of anyone being prosecuted for carrying a weapon in any Federal facility who was not also charged with robbery, aggravated battery, or some other felony. This to me means that they are either not enforcing that law by itself, or that no attorney is attempting that defense.

Don't forget to bring your CCW badge!!
 
Fiddletown, thanks for that. So the USC doesn't apply to the PO, so then the issue we need to hash out is what is defined (or allowed as) "official purposes"? Mailing a firearm would be official. Does it end there or is it inclusive of other actions?
 


divemedic, as already pointed out, CFR 39 232.1 plainly states that it doesn't over rule existing US Code. USC Title 18 Section 930 still stands:

from USC Title 18, Section 930

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.​

 
I stand by my earlier statement. My guess is that USPO carry is illegal. But there is no clear answer to the question and there won't be until a prosecution occurs and a federal court issues a ruling.

Rather than continuing to argue USC vs CFR vs what overrides what, can anyone point out any case law that addresses this issue? I've never seen a single judicial opinion regarding legal CC in a Post Office.
 
csmkersh said:
...CFR 39 232.1 plainly states that it doesn't over rule existing US Code. USC Title 18 Section 930 still stands:...
Nope! Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Title 39 USC 410 essentially makes 18 USC 930 inapplicable to the USPS. So 18 USC 930 does NOT still stand, and carrying a weapon into a Post Office is illegal under 39 CFR 232.1.

See my post #22, above, and http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

freakshow10mm said:
Fiddletown, thanks for that. So the USC doesn't apply to the PO, so then the issue we need to hash out is what is defined (or allowed as) "official purposes"? Mailing a firearm would be official. Does it end there or is it inclusive of other actions?
Good question. I think that a court would certainly read "official" as narrower than "lawful." I also think that a court would most likely require that to be "official" it would have to have something to do with the business of the USPS or some other governmental agency. So bringing in a gun to legally mail would probably be "official." Guns carried by LEOs would probably be official. Guns lawfully carried by private citizens would probably NOT be official.
 
IMO, the CFR is not trying to overrule the USC, but is merely defining what the "lawful purpose" is. Since the USC does not define "lawful purpose," the USC is defining it. I do not see where there is a conflict.

Like I said, I could not find a single case where that law was enforced, unless there was another crime being committed. Concealed means concealed, but that does not mean that I want to be the test case, either.

What we need, since this topic comes out quite frequently, is for someone to "take one for the team" and walk into a post office with a weapon. If the person lives in a state where open carry is legal, they can open carry into the post office, and let us know what happens.

Anyone wanna put your money where your mouth is and volunteer? After all, if you are convinced that it is legal, then you shouldn't have a problem, right? Or are some of you just internet blowhards? Keyboard commandos? Net ninjas? Internet Lawyers?
 
39 CFR Sec. 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/julqtr/39cfr232.1.htm

What more interpretation is needed? The whole United States Post Office is a strange thing. It really isn't a Federal Office; as far as I can tell it is a government run corporation allowed to engage in a monopoly. Nonetheless, the law is as stated and I'm sure would be upheld in court as such.
 
It already HAS BEEN upheld in court. No one needs to be a "test case." It has already been done, and the conviction was upheld.

District court opinion is here

Excerpt:

Both Heller and Emerson [the 2001 Fifth Circuit case that anticipated the Heller individual rights ruling] ... make it clear that the “right to bear arms” –- albeit an individual fundamental right of all Americans secured by the Second Amendment –- is not unlimited....

The Property Clause of the United States Constitution grants Congress the right to regulate federal property. It provides: “The Congress shall have the Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the territory or other Property belonging to the United States....”

The Fifth Circuit has routinely upheld federal regulations that are designed to promote workplace and public safety on government property....

Clearly, 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(1)[,] which bans possession of weapons solely on postal property is not unconstitutional as applied. Neither Heller nor Emerson involved gun control regulations banning possession of “arms” on federal property. Indeed, the Supreme Court in Heller described the District’s statute as a law that “totally bans handgun possession” extends to the home and “requires that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock at all times, rendering it inoperable.

The regulation at issue in this case is far more limited in application in that it (1) applies only on the confines of properly noticed postal property, (2) is sanctioned by both the Property and Postal Clauses of the U.S. Constitution and (3) falls within the Heller Court’s category and non-exhaustive list of excepted longstanding prohibitions on carrying firearms –- i.e., “sensitive places such as schools and government buildings.”

Indeed, federal law (OSHA) requires employers to abate workplace hazards and encourages employers to take measures to prevent gun-related injuries. Surely, the United States Postal Service would be remiss if it failed to practice what federal law requires.

Without question, § 232.1(1) bolsters the United States Postal Service’s zero tolerance for workplace violence and is a regulation designed to maintain safety and order on postal property. 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a), which prohibits possession of dangerous weapons, serves the same purpose within federal facilities.

Congress has the authority to regulate safety of the post office and its property, notwithstanding the individual right to bear arms in the home, “where the need for defense of self, family and property is most acute.”

The ban at issue does not affect the right of all individuals to bear arms at home or traveling in a vehicle to and from work through high crime areas. Its reach does not extend beyond the noticed, gated confines of United States Postal Services’ property. It is narrowly tailored to effect public and workplace safety solely on postal property consistent with the Property and Postal Clauses.

Similarly, 18 U.S.C. § 930(a) criminalizes knowing possession of dangerous weapons, but only within the confines of a federal facility/building. Regulations forbidding the possession or carrying of firearms “in sensitive places” such as federal and/or postal property abound; these longstanding prohibitions have been upheld.
 
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fiddletown said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmkersh
...CFR 39 232.1 plainly states that it doesn't over rule existing US Code. USC Title 18 Section 930 still stands:...

Nope! Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Title 39 USC 410 essentially makes 18 USC 930 inapplicable to the USPS. So 18 USC 930 does NOT still stand, and carrying a weapon into a Post Office is illegal under 39 CFR 232.1.

Did you even read Title 39 Section 410?

From Title 39 Section 410

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:



(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;​

 
As with ANY Federal installation i.e: US Military, Post Offices, Courts, and any posted US Installation - you MUST have permission from the installation commander or designee to carry a weapon into those areas. Federal Agents - those guys have written permission to do so at higher levels so that they dont need to request it themselves. Bottom line - no permission - no donut :scrutiny:
 
It is completely illegal. The Post Office is considered to be a federal building that does business with the public. THerefore firearms are not allowed in the building. However, you are allowed to keep it in the car while you go in. Would not do you any good if someone came in a and shot up the place but there it is.
 
Only reason I go to the Post Office is to get their Money Orders, usually for gun stuff or ammo. It's not a drive, I take the downtown Denver free shuttle bus down the 16th Street Mall, and there's lots of lowlifes on that street. Actually fairly safe in the daytime, since there's so many people out and about, but night-time is another story.
 
csmkersh said:
...Did you even read Title 39 Section 410?...
Yes I did, as a matter of fact. And 18 USC 930 does NOT deal with the "...Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;..." It is a criminal statute that deals in a general manner with firearms on federal property.

A court will read the exception of 410(b)(2) to apply only to statures in Title 18 that specifically refer to the Postal Service, etc. But if you're so sure that 410(b)(2) gets you off the hook, carry your concealed gun into your Post Office and tell one of the Postal Inspectors. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, have a look at Post #36, above, describing a recent conviction for having a gun in a Post Office.
 
bob, the case you cited has no basis in this discussion.

He was an employee. Employees are subject to differant rules than the public here in LA.

Right now, I cannot keep a gun in my truck at work. in 11 days, I can (while still being an employee) In 23 days, I can CCW (permitting that I have my permit by then) at that location because I will no longer be an employee and am t hus no longer bound by the employment contract I signed with them.

If the post office told him when he started working there that he could not have a gun on hte premises, including his car, then he could not. That is, until the 15th of this month, then they would be unable to fire him for carrying in his vehicle.....he shoulda refused the darn search, woulda been able to get the entire thing thrown out, now he is risking a felony
 
Jimmy Dean,

If you read the material to which bob provides a link, you'll see that the fact that the defendant was an employee is largely irrelevant. He was prosecuted under 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1. These are laws of general application and not work rules.

The references in the Memorandum Opinion to his being an employee merely gave some additional weight to the findings the both 39 CFR 232.1 and 18 USC 930 are constitutional as applied in the case. But all that could be redacted, and the judge could still probably have found sufficient bases to overcome the constitutional challenge.
 
Valkman said:
We can carry in the PO in this town because some guys pushed it and there are no "gray areas" anymore. We can OC or CCW in the Library and PO and CCW in the DMV. It can be done.
You may be doing it, and the staff in your local post office may not choose to blow the whistle, but it's still illegal. And it's still a Federal felony if anyone ever does blow the whistle.

You may do as you wish. Personally, I have no desire to give up my RKBA for the remainder of my life. I leave my handgun in the car when I go to the post office.
 
If some of you clowns put the same effort into 2nd Amendment Activism as you did into trying to figure out ways to circumvent the relatively minor laws which you seem to be intent upon breaking, we'd already have gun control rolled back past 1968, with momentum.

I'm really disappointed in a lot of you.
 
bogie said:
If some of you clowns put the same effort into 2nd Amendment Activism as you did into trying to figure out ways to circumvent the relatively minor laws which you seem to be intent upon breaking, we'd already have gun control rolled back past 1968, with momentum...
Some of us are going to a lot of trouble to try to keep some of these folks out of jail by convincing them that it really is illegal. Shouldn't we bother?
 
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