CCW: unloaded, revolvers, ankle holsters, etc.? Time to rethink?

[WeedWhacker]

I recently purchased a small revolver for eventual CCW use, with the mindset that "it is better to have something than nothing" (which still holds true). I'm also somewhat concerned about printing problems, so I figured an ankle holster would be the best choice to use.
That said, however, I saw a security-cam video of a CCW-holder confronting and shooting an armed robber... and I still can't believe how fast everything happened and how little time there is to react, etc. (I did a quick search and didn't find a thread here in regards to the video - mods, please merge the threads if I missed it.)
Here's a link to the video; there's no sound as it's from a security camera. Roughly six megs. ( http://freefileupload.net/file.php?file=files/060306/1141684021/Shooting3.wmv )

Things I've been thinking about:

1. An ankle holster would likely have been very problematic for the Good Guy, almost certainly drawing attention to himself.
2. The Good Guy reportedly saw a gun being pointed at him/in his direction. He fired three quick, aimed shots with a .40 semi-auto. With a single-action revolver, I don't think most folks would be able to get more than the initial shot off within the time frame here, certainly not more than two shots. Hopefully, one shot would be all that would be needed, but proper shot placement is a lot tougher in real-world gun fights.
3. There were other innocent people "down-range". Okay, so this isn't unexpected nor uncommon, but as someone else put it "you won't get a 30' backstop, a stationary bad guy, and a range officer". Which leads me to the next point...
4. Training, practice, is key. It seems obvious to me that the Good Guy had practiced what to do and put the training/reflexes to work.

Conclusions I've reached:

1. Stick with a pocket/IWB/OWB holster. (Shoulder holsters may work for those who can wear them.)
2. Strongly consider buying a smaller semi-auto for CCW use. The capacity and rate of fire of semi-autos vs. revolvers were undervalued by me.
3. Acknowledge the risk and take steps to reduce it...:
4. I live near a lot of BLM land with big, tall hills. I'm going to take advantage of this and practice drawing, stances/grips, and fast aimed firing.


There may still be some occasions where nothing other than a small revolver in an ankle holster can be carried... but I think that, for myself, I'm going to look at something else, probably a compact/sub-compact semi-auto in an IWB/OWB/pocket holster.
-edit
This also highlighted, to me, the importance of keeping a round in the chamber.

 

[WT]

Okay, I'm not quite sure of something.

You plan on a semi-auto over a revolver because of capacity concerns? Do you plan to miss a lot? Will high capacity make up for poor marksmanship?

I didn't download the video but you say the problem was resolved with 3 shots.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Capacity is just the icing on the cake in this particular scenario.

The bad guy wasn't actually physically incapacitated as near as anyone can tell: two rounds passed through, one got lodged in a shoulder-blade. The perp is alive and serving hard time, with no mention of paralysis. While he did likely have a punctured lung, he wasn't "stopped" by the bullets, but from the psychological shock of being shot. Or the pain, maybe. Point is, though, I'd rather have 10, 12, or 16 rounds ready to go, over five!

Capacity does indeed have its place. If someone seriously thinks they can reliably hit a moving one-inch target (the spinal column in this case, or the space between the top lip and the eyeballs on the head) at ANY range under life-and-death stress, I call B.S. Since nothing else will literally instantly stop a human body from functioning, capacity gives you extra dice to roll in a Really Bad Situation, which this scenario wasn't one of.

The overwhelming reason for a semi-auto in this particular case is the rate of
fire. The guy has what appears to be a compact Glock, which has a fairly light (4.5-5.5lb) trigger, and he had kept it loaded with one in the chamber. Cocking a revolver on the draw may be trivial (I'll find out soon enough), but follow-up shots will be slower by far with a single-action. I haven't shot a double-action revolver.

Considering the time involved here, with a single-action revolver, I could have gotten one, *maybe* two shots at the bad guy before he was out the door. The first shot may have been the one which merely hit the shoulder blade, so now we've got an armed badguy on the loose with no line of fire. Bah. That's what's making me rethink the revolver.

 

[Amish_Bill]

This brings up a good question - Who buys a single action revolver for CCW?

This leads to another question - WHo makes a small CCW style revolver in single action?

The DA pull on a good revolver can be rather nice. No worse than some of the autos I've shot in any case.

 

[jrou111]

If the situation called for it, I could unload all 5 rounds of my .44 magnum hollowpoints as fast as that guy popped off three. From that distance it will hit _something_ vital, not to mention hydrostatic shock from 5 chunks of lead expending 800 ft/lbs of energy.

 

[geekWithA.45]

For all practical purposes and normal people, the _single_ action revolver has been obsolete as a defensive sidearm for what...100 years?

A DA or DAO is another story. They're generally accepted as adequate for civilian self defense, given that the average defensive gunfight is a total of 3 shots at five FEET.

Personally, that cuts it a bit close for my tastes, but I've been known to leave the house with only a j-frame and at least one, and usually two speedloaders.

With correct technique, practice, a safariland style speedloader (or moon clips), and a full length ejector (lamentably missing on snubbies), a revolver can be reloaded as rapidly as an autoloader.

That being said, the final issue is that of depth of concealment vs speed of access. There's a fundamental tradeoff here, that must be made appropriate to the context.

Working counter after dark is surely indicative of the need for speed rather than concealment.

Flipside, the business luncheon in a decent part of town calls for the other tradeoff. I would imagine that nothing queers a deal faster than the butt of your sidearm sticking out.

 

[Preacherman]

jrou111, three problems:

1. There is no hydrostatic shock produced by any handgun round. Velocities have to be waaaay up there to produce this effect - even rifle rounds out of handguns are too slow.

2. A .44 Magnum in rapid fire is going to have hellacious problems with muzzle climb. I'm not sure you could get all five rounds accurately on target in such a shooting mode.

3. Overpenetration will be a big problem - remember, you're responsible for where every round ends up. That's why .44 Magnum is not a commonly favored defensive round: it can shoot through a BG and hit someone else half-a-mile downrange.

 

[jrou111]

A .44 Magnum in rapid fire is going to have hellacious problems with muzzle climb. I'm not sure you could get all five rounds accurately on target in such a shooting mode.

I don't have any problems with muzzle climb. It lifts _maybe_ an inch.

Guess I'll have to videotape it

 

[jrou111]

The point is that DA revolvers have the potential to be unloaded quickly.

 

[crofrog]

A DA or DAO is another story. They're generally accepted as adequate for civilian self defense, given that the average defensive gunfight is a total of 3 shots at five FEET.

Adequate and average aren't words I want to base my training around. I'll train to be the best I can be with as much cabablity's (mindset, skill and gear) as I can reasonably attain.

That way if I get the coked out drug druggy I'm lucky and more than ready, but if I get something bigger at least I've started to look at how to address it. You get some "Eye of the tiger" or roving group of 15 gang bangers and all you got is your 5 shot snub. You are a little under powdered.

What if there are only 3 attackers? You are already pretty close to not having enough bullets to resolve the issue.

People who continue to carry only revolvers for self defense are from before the fight even starts placing themselves at a disadvantage.

Chris

 

[jlbraun]

I remember reading on another set of forums, where the hero in the video laid out the story. He's an NRA Pistol instructor - boy did the perp try to rob the wrong place!

 

[ball3006]

You have to remember......

in a CCW situation, you are using deadly force just to STOP the perp from causing you or a third party bodily harm. The term "shoot and scoot" comes to mind, a couple quick accurate shots then "get outta Dodge". All you are authorized to do is defuse the situation, nothing more.......chris3

 

[SgtGunner]

That way if I get the coked out drug druggy I'm lucky and more than ready, but if I get something bigger at least I've started to look at how to address it. You get some "Eye of the tiger" or roving group of 15 gang bangers and all you got is your 5 shot snub. You are a little under powdered.

Where the hell do you hang out? Isn't situational awareness a little more important here?

People who continue to carry only revolvers for self defense are from before the fight even starts placing themselves at a disadvantage.

This has got to be the most moronic statemnet I have ever read. I routinely carry a 5 shot 3inch model 60 with a pair of speedloaders and will wager I can not only shoot it more accurately than the average joe with his self loader I can reload it as fast if not faster. It's all about the level of training not the gear PERIOD...


on another track, how many times you seen a revolver jam? I can count in 30 years of shooting 1 jam I have personally seen, and that was a 60 year old revo that was NEVER cleaned and rusted beyond repair. It should have never been fired to begin with.

 

[jondar]

WeedWhacker - I agree with your four conclusions. Seem well thought out. I have been a revolver fan all my life, and they certainly have their place, but I'm beginning to think like Major George Nonte when they asked him when it was that he changed over from revolvers to Hi-Cap semi auto, he replied, "The day after I was jumped by eight nasty young punks in a rest area in Oklahoma." Nuff said.

 

[crofrog]

This has got to be the most moronic statemnet I have ever read. I routinely carry a 5 shot 3inch model 60 with a pair of speedloaders and will wager I can not only shoot it more accurately than the average joe with his self loader I can reload it as fast if not faster. It's all about the level of training not the gear PERIOD...

Mindset is most important PERIOD. After that it's tactic's then skill and gear. Notice how "gear" still comes into play.

How about this. Time yourself how long it takes to shoot the El Presidente and then we can compare it to people who use auto loaders. While the mindset and tactics are not shown at all in the drill. It will make clear how the low capacity of the revolver is a hindrance. If you will have had to reload twice and at the conclusion will have 3 rounds remaining in the event any one of their friends show up.

Contrast that to someone with a 15 shot semi-auto w/one in the pipe with the same number of reloads you have. He still has 4 rounds in the gun didn't have to reload once, and still has 30rd's on his belt.

So how is the limited ammo capacity _not_ placing you in a position of disadvantage before the fight even starts?

on another track, how many times you seen a revolver jam? I can count in 30 years of shooting 1 jam I have personally seen, and that was a 60 year old revo that was NEVER cleaned and rusted beyond repair. It should have never been fired to begin with.

I've only see a revolver jam once. However I don't shoot them very often. On that same note with my glock 19 I've had 0 failures the entire time I've owned it although I manually induce a failure randomly in every mag I shoot to make sure the TRB is completely muscle memory. Same with my other friends P226.

Before anyone says I need to shoot it more and it will fail. I shoot at least 200rd's a week often times approaching 500-600. I replace my springs every 5000rd's and clean my gun once a week.

 

[crofrog]

Where the hell do you hang out? Isn't situational awareness a little more important here?

Not everyone lives in plesantville, usa. The fact that I've not been dropped into these scenarios yet speaks to my situational awareness.

 

[Amish_Bill]

OK .. lets back off a bit here.....

Yes, More is Better when it comes to available ammo. Always.

Now, in comes CCW. The basic premise of CCW is that it must be small enough to be practical to carry on and about your person on a regular basis. That is why we don't just skip to the chase and carry an M1a as our armament of choice.

Smaller is better when it comes to CCW. How small is small enough? It varies by person. For some people a KelTec P32 or a tiny j-frame is all they can conceal and carry practically. Others might be able to hide a Sig 226 Sport and 5 25 round mags.

It basically boils down to what is the most gun you can (and more importanly, will) carry and conceal on a regular basis? As other people have said before, the greatest large high-cap is of no use to you if it's so difficult to carry that it's still at home in your sock drawer.

 

[Azrael256]

So how is the limited ammo capacity _not_ placing you in a position of disadvantage before the fight even starts?

It is placing you at a disadvantage if your opponent(s) carries substantially more ammo than you do, or is a much better shot than you are.

The thing is that you're always playing probabilities with self defense. We read about police officers being killed in the line of duty in spite of their superior training, (usually) superior weapons, and the fact that all of their buddies with superior training and weapons will show up with the utterance of two words into the radio. The reason is that they play the probability game differently. The folks around here like to minimize their chances of a violent encounter with someone by practicing avoidance. For ordinary citizens, avoidance is the best way to stack the deck. It will work throughout a long and happy lifetime for the vast majority of folks.

Contrast that with the police officer who's job requires him to wade neck-deep into every violent encounter in his jurisdiction. He carries a large weapon, lots of ammunition, and a number of other tools to stack the deck in his favor. Most of the time it works. Occasionally it doesn't. The point is that probability requires him to have the extra ammo capacity.

I won't say that a citizen has no need for X number of rounds. I personally couldn't care less if you choose to carry a single-shot derringer or a belt-fed MG. The point is, however, that the proper mindset, as you astutely observed, usually keeps the ammo capacity debate here in the forum, and not on the street.

The day after I was jumped by eight nasty young punks in a rest area in Oklahoma.

While I think that Major Nonte's reasoning is quite valid, I think it reinforces my point about playing the probabilities. I, personally, see rest stops as the personal defense equivalent of "going over the top." The two times I have stopped at a rest stop (just couldn't hold it anymore, and no gas stations in sight), I was pretty much expecting to be accosted in one way or another, and I loaded up accordingly.

 

[AJ Dual]

I'll just repost my response when this shooting came up the first time in Strat&Tac...

The shooter is "RooftopVoter" and he posts over on www.gunsnet.net .

You can search more details on his story up there. The robber had a .45 colt revolver. IIRC (check his posts on Gunsnet) RooftopVoter was carrying a compact Glock .40 loaded with Golden Sabers. He shot the perp four times, and he fell in the doorway out of sight of the camera.

The story is getting attention on all the gun boards now, because the perp's trial ended when he plead guilty and took a deal from the DA. And he can now go into specifics of what happened. RooftopVoter was not charged, and said all his experiences with the DA's and the Police were very positive. They were very happy he took him out. He received his gun back in good condition once the trial ended, the only reason they kept it was that it was evidence against the perp in his trial.

Aside from working at the hotel where the attempted robbery took place, he is also a CCW instructor in his state.

The woman with the child was not in his immediate line of fire, according to him, they were at least one yard to the side, the angle of the security camera just makes it look like she was in the way. Also, range safety/etiquette is one thing, when it's your life, you take the shot you have. She was very thankful.

Since then, that woman has actually contacted RooftopVoter about CCW training and getting her own permit!

Not shabby...

Rooftop Voter attended the trial of the armed robber as he was to be called as a witness. (never took the stand because of the plea deal...) He wore a Glock shirt to court. (Now that takes some stones... LOL!) He didn't know it at the time, but he was sitting just a few feet away from the robber's family. He hadn't been identified yet, but when the DA mentioned something like: "...And when one of the victims working the counter, Mr. RooftopVoter, drew his legally carried Glock .40 handgun and fired four times..." He could hear the entire family turn, and he could feel their eyes on him. He didn't mention the perp's family being overtly hostile though. I get the sense they were mostly in shock the perp did it in the first place.

The saddest thing is that the perp/robber had no priors. He was actually a college student at the time. He's going to be in his mid-thirties when he gets out of prison.

 

[RyanM]

Ankle carry has an advantage over regular strong side hip carry in that it's much easier to draw while seated, may hide better than cross draw (cross draw prints very badly for me), and doesn't need a covering garment like a shoulder holster does.

There was one case where a police officer or detective or someone (I totally forget) was abducted, and managed to draw a snubnose from an ankle holster and kill his kidnappers.

 

[Third_Rail]

Boy. He sure did move fast - I hope and pray that if I ever am in that situation I can move, aim, and fire accurately.

 

[DevLcL]

Notice how Mr. Rooftop got up and pretended to help with the cash, at the same time hiding the fact that he was actually reaching for his piece. I'll bet that guy had played that scenerio out in his head a million times, and it finally paid off.

-Dev

 

[WeedWhacker]

This leads to another question - WHo makes a small CCW style revolver in single action?

North American Arms is the current manufacturer of a line of (reputedly) quality tiiiny revolvers. They're single-action, most carry five rounds, and take major finger-gymnastics to reload: there's no cylinder swing and you have to use the removable cylinder pin to push out the spent shells. Then you have to reload... that's juggling up to eight items which all need to be carefully placed in small holes! Any reloads you carry probably should be of the New York variety.

I had a chance to shoot a NAA Black Widow in both .22LR and .22WMR: I was impressed with the pistol, in that it appeared to be really solidly made, was rock-solid under full lockup, etc. The sights are terrible, being all black, so that it's hard to see when they line up, but that could probably be solved with a bit of good enamel, or whatever else sticks well enough to stainless steel.

Of course, the one other quality the mini-revolvers have in spades is that you could hide one of the suckers just about *anywhere*.

In short, I've decided that, for me, while such tiiiiny firearms are, indeed, much better than nothing at all (they sure do shoot nice for the five rounds you do have!), something like a small Kahr or a sub-compact Glock will, by far, be the better choice.

 

[WeedWhacker]

You get some "Eye of the tiger" or roving group of 15 gang bangers and all you got is your 5 shot snub. You are a little under powdered.

Where the hell do you hang out? Isn't situational awareness a little more important here?

Hopefully, this won't become a more common occurance, but in Las Vegas, a man was attacked by ~15 kids in/around the MGM parking area. They beat him pretty badly, as he had a broken collarbone and jaw, IIRC. Link.

Something similar happened again a little while later on the other side of town: a lady was assaulted by ~10-15 thugs, who also beat down an assistant manager who ran out and tried to help the original victim. (See above link.)

 

[c_yeager]

The overwhelming reason for a semi-auto in this particular case is the rate of
fire. The guy has what appears to be a compact Glock, which has a fairly light (4.5-5.5lb) trigger, and he had kept it loaded with one in the chamber. Cocking a revolver on the draw may be trivial (I'll find out soon enough), but follow-up shots will be slower by far with a single-action. I haven't shot a double-action revolver.

I have no idea why anyone would want to carry a single action revolver, why is that even an option here? Double action revolvers can be fired as fast or faster than any semi-auto on the market. Guys like Jerry Miculek can empty a doulbe action revolver at a rate that is very close to the cyclic rate fully automatic weapons.