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Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Steve S., Jan 6, 2019.

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  1. frogfurr

    frogfurr Member

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    There certainly can be exposure to the legal system if the need ever arises. Self defense insurance is available for that. I have self defense insurance.

    In for a penny. In for a pound. It could be more of a worry than it is worth. There really isn't any middle ground.
     
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  2. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Pretty easy, if you are going to die if you don’t, you are OK. If you die because you didn’t, not as cool.
     
  3. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    If you set up rules of engagement BEFORE you're in a violent encounter, then a lot of your ambivalence about carrying a handgun will go away.

    1) Learn what justifies the use of lethal force, and what doesn't. Learn those principles by heart. Then, don't draw or shoot unless its justified.

    2) Learn what really happens to people who defend themselves in a violent encounter. Be ready for the aftermath.

    3) Decide beforehand whether you're willing to defend only yourself and your loved ones, or if you're willing to step into third-party situations.

    4) Learn to study people's actions and words to help determine whether they represent a real threat, or if you're just experiencing "bare fear".

    5) Learn what kind of situations can be solved with your handgun (what shots you can and can't make reliably). Get better at the shots that you really think you must be able to make, and, maybe more importantly, learn to NOT take the shots that you can't make reliably.

    If you haven't though much about these topics, the best place I've seen to get started is in Mas Ayoob's MAG40 class.

    https://massadayoobgroup.com/events/category/mag40/
     
  4. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    The 2 most important factors in consistently carrying a firearm are training and information. I learn something new EVERY SINGLE DAY I log on here. A new law for/against the 2A being passed here. New product coming up. New gun coming up. A video showing an attack, how can you overcome a gang of 5 or more? Virtually anyone can get a permit (or not in permitless carry states), buy a gun, load it, holster it, and be on your merry way. But we, as legal carriers, must know when, where, and how we can carry at all times. What is deadly force and what isn't.

    I have fire extinguishers in my home. I have first aid kits for massive trauma in my home. And I have guns. I don't hope to use any of them. But IF the the situation calls for it I know how to put out a small house fire, bandage an arterial bleed, and shoot to defend myself or the ones I care about.
     
  5. drk1

    drk1 Member

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    I understand your concerns and position completely. After my wife was beaten and raped, I carried illeaglly for years. After she died, I quit carrying because I no longer had anyone or anything to protect. I decided to get a CCL when I discoved a bad guy trying to break into my house and mistook me for another bad guy. He thoughtfully explained that he'd be willing to "split the stuff" with me. In the years that followed, two of my friends were murdered, and I found myself increasingly surrounded by threats, violence and crime at the same time witnessing the police becoming less and less willing to get involved. My response was to follow the suggestion some have offered here: I moved to a "safer" location. Unfortunately, I was robbed to the tune of over $30,000 within six months. In spite of that, there was one incident that stands out among many, and while the naysayers will certainly dismiss it as an anecdote, it eventually led me to quit carrying. I was beaten at work, where I was not allowed to carry. I called the sheriff and after the useless piece of .... that responded saw the blood running down my back, he shrugged and said "if you don't like the job, maybe you should quit," then threatened to arrest me when I explained that I wanted to press charges. Not only did this wonderful law enforcement agency refuse to allow me to file a report much less press charges, they also refused to accept my letter of complaint regarding their actions or lack thereof! Anyone who says things like: "Violent crime and property crime have been trending down for thirty years" or "We are living in the least violent age that humanity has ever seen" is delusional and is simply regurgitating the pablum put forth by the politicans and their toadies, and is, in fact a sycophant of Pangloss. The reality is that law enforcement has become little more than a keeper of statistics and they realize that if they present statistics the politicans and the public don't like, they will not receive the financial support they want. It's become little more than an game. Every year they trot out their statistics that prove crime is going down as proof they are doing a wonderful job. But then they quickly add that they need just a little more money, just one more levy or one more budget increase. For those of us who face the increasingly deadly facts of reality each day, the only apparent solution, as others have implied, is to follow the "guidelines" adopted by law enforcement when they are confronted with violence -- only reply with like kind and quality of force and get it on camera. But even then, as others again have said, doubtlessly you will need a very good lawyer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  6. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I've always been puzzled by people more concerned about getting sued by somebody who tried to slaughter them and failed, than by actually getting slaughtered.

    Fortunately, Ohio doesn't reward people for their ineptitude at being a violent criminal.
     
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  7. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Some people are just averse to:
    1. analytical thinking
    2. considering worst case scenarios

    People like that shouldn't own guns... or automobiles.
     
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  8. Steve S.

    Steve S. Member

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    Thank you for the reading; caused even more thought and reflection on my part about carrying a handgun. I simply do not have the crystalline mind requirement of the training, liability law, handgun marksmanship, law enforcement, carry insurance, trauma assistance, behavioral psychology, acute combat zone-like awareness of my surroundings, etc - I am extremely unprepared to carry a handgun as I have nowhere near these kinds of polished disciplines. I think now that I am more concerned than ever and that is why I asked the experts.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    To say that you're over-thinking this would be the understatement of the century. Your talking about defending YOURSELF from an unlawful deadly force attack against yourself, not deciding between an amphibious invasion of Japan and dropping the bombs.

    If you're going to carry a firearm for self-defense you should, at a minimum:
    1. WANT to defend your life - If you're more concerned about the well being of a potential assailant than your own, don't bother. Just trust to luck, or whatever supernatural force appeals to you.
    2. Be able to safely handle your firearm without inadvertently harming yourself or others. - Learn the three NRA basics of gun safety.
    3. Learn the basics of self-defense and deadly force law in YOUR jurisdiction. - In most places use deadly force only to defend from the imminent and credible threat of deadly force against yourself which you REASONABLY perceive.
    4. "Trauma assistance"??? - In most cases, you will have no duty to render medical attention to someone whom you've lawfully shot in self-defense, beyond notifying 911 that somebody has been shot. In fact, there are numerous reasons NOT to.
    5. Insurance - Get it if you feel you need it. In Ohio, I can be sued by the "car and knife" jihadi who tries to slaughter me, or his survivors. If it's a legally justified shooting, he can't collect... even if he wins. Lawyers tend not to take cases for 1/3 of NOTHING.

    Bottom line: This isn't MacArthur's island hopping campaign. It's just keeping yourself alive and out of jail. If you don't care about the former, the latter doesn't matter.
     
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  10. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    I am also concerned that "people are angrier today and much more willing to act on that anger," but come to the opposite conclusion. It's one of the reasons I choose to carry.
    I've carried for about 10 years now, and been a lawyer for upwards of 15. I've had lots of time to think about this very thing. The legal system can be brutal. And I think I'm probably better equipped than most to deal with it. The law typically penalizes the "initial aggressor" in a violent confrontation, so there's a certain amount of attitude, bravado, and/or aggression that you just have to leave at home when you carry. But I have a wife and a daughter to protect, in addition to the prospect of defending my own life. I'll take any risks that the legal system has to offer over giving up a weapon that I might have to use to protect my wife and daughter. I'll do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
    Well said.

    I think Mrs. McGee says this about me. :p

    It didn't really change as my daughter got older. She'll always be my daughter. I've just had more time to think about things.

    In my house, we call those "solvable problems." That said, you have some decisions to make, and only you can make them. I wish you the best of luck, whichever path you choose.
     
  11. RETG

    RETG Member

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    Agree.
    And possibly the OP is not a person who should carry if this worried.
     
  12. Pat Riot
    • Contributing Member

    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    I always ask anyone that wants to buy and keep a gun for self protection one question and their answer (to themselves) should dictate their actions:

    “Are you willing to take a life?”

    Simple question with many not so simple answers.
     
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  13. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    NO place is "safe" or immune from the most extreme violence:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

    Dr. Pettit and his family weren't exactly living in the "hood". His wife and daughters were still raped and burned to death.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_Bryant_shooting

    I've been in that area of Tinley Park, Illinois numerous times. My mother lives nearby. I've NEVER felt in "danger" there. I'm sure those five women didn't either.
     
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  14. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    And if the answer is "no", they need to be willing to throw themselves on the mercy of somebody who probably can't even spell the word, much less exercise the concept.
     
  15. Labguy47

    Labguy47 Member

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    Incorrect, the prosecutor in Medina Ohio was hell bent on prosecution of me for having a CCW from out of state even when I showed him the reciprocity paperwork from Ohio. The judge ruled in my favor but be rest assured I did my homework before carrying there. I will never go back. Court and lawyer fees for an aquitall totaled,$4000.
     
  16. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    1. You're talking about something completely different from being sued by somebody who tried to murder you.
    2. When did this happen? This story is missing a lot of important details. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying that we're a LOOOONG way from knowing WHAT happened. If you had a valid concealed carry credential, on what basis were you prosecuted? If what you imply is true, then there would be no more basis for you to be prosecuted than there would be for you to be prosecuted for driving with a valid driver's license, or for voting in a jurisdiction in which you were legally registered to vote.
    3. This would appear to be a violation of Section 9.68 of the Ohio Revised Code. It also seems like the basis for a Federal civil rights suit under 1968. What remedies did you seek for the alleged violations of your rights?
    It seems like there's way more to this story.
     
  17. jar

    jar Member

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    If you are not comfortable carrying then please don't carry.
     
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  18. Sarge7402

    Sarge7402 Member

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    First in order to be exposed to the legal system you have to survive the agressive encounter. Having a firearm with you tends to ensure your survival in tact .
     
  19. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    OP, you have some hard thinking to do. You've received some good advice here, but at the end of the day it is your decision to make. Make the one you can life with and the one that works for your soul.
     
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