Consider this aspect...if a LEO and his department know that the local prosecutor will back them up then the path to educate a wayward LEO is long and hard. If the prosecutor typically dismisses these BS cases and sends a friendly note to the LEOs boss of the waywardness of the LEO, the prevalence of these BS cases is dramatically reduced in those jurisdictions. Without a prosecutor to back them up LEOs are reluctant to break the law.
Charged with resisting for failure to produce id
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"On the same side". What a novel idea!
Definitely one of the more sensible things I've read today.
Deanimator
Member
Respect != giving up fundamental constitutional rights, much less rendering fawning obsequiousness. Any LEO who doesn't realize that and act in accordance with it, is on the opposite side of the law from me. It's just as simple as that.
Any LEO who demands that I waive my rights as a citizen, and who threatens me with unlawful harassment if I refuse to do so, not only disrespects me, he disrespects the law and indeed the highest law of the land, the United States Constitution. Someone who does that deserves no respect at all. What they DO deserve is every sanction capable of being wielded against them, be it administratively, civilly or criminally.
Everybody has a choice, obey the law or not. "Not" is a bad choice for an LEO. When they make that choice, it ought to come with a VERY heavy price tag.
NavyLCDR
member
LEO's just want to go home at the end of their shift. I don't know what that has to do anything, but that's what I hear said a lot, so I just thought I would say it here before someone else does. Dang it, now I guess I am going to have to argue with myself.... where did that medication go....
Old krow
Member
No marathon was ever won without taking the first step. And second, how does breaking our own laws actually win the war on terror? Sounds to me like that IS the intended purpose of terrorism. Wouldn't mean that THEY are winning? Americans will give up more freedoms out of fear than any political organization or foreign nation could ever take from us.
This is sort of silly IMHO. It's the law. We're all supposed to abide by it. If it was really that out of line, get a good lawyer and let the courts decide. That's why we have it.
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NavyLCDR
member
Isn't terrorism when one party (the terrorist) attempts to gain compliance from the victims by threatening or causing unpleasant circumstances upon the victim?
So, let's see, no basis for a demand to show ID, the person doing the demanding threatens to arrest or does arrest the subject, unlawfully, for not showing ID when requested without basis for the request... what was that definition of terrorism again?
Why should we condone police acting like terrorists in the name of the war on terror?
Thankfully only a fraction of one percent of our LEOs act like terrorists.
Respect has to start with the state towards its citizens. To many cops, the only difference between a criminal and an honest citizen is that the honest citizen hasn't been caught yet. The divide is between "them" (LE) and "us" (everyone else). While thankfully that isnt the situation is many places and among many many LE's, it is common enough to be a problem.
Submitting to unlawful orders only encourages that behavior. It pushes the envelope just a little bit further. All of it is done under the guise of "making LE's job easier." I am not here to make their job easier. I am here to exercise the rights and privileges I enjoy as a citizen of this great country. And that doesn't include providing ID when I don't have to.
Deanimator
Member
Unfortunately, there are FAR too many people willing to meekly acquiesce or worse, to defend them.
They are enablers, every bit as much as those who make excuses for the Times Square bomber.
gc70
Member
Aaron Baker said:
Without the full story? There is essentially no story because the OP did not provide meaningful details other than someone was arrested.
Here's an added detail: the hypothetical person being arrested only speaks in polite tones, with a yes sir and no sir response, even if an LEO refers to him as a <deleted> in return. This person was calm and cool during the entire process, actually you could accurately describe his demeanor as friendly, if not bowing to every whim of the officers involved.
This hypothetical case, if it were to go awry, would in my limited understanding set a very dangerous and rights-limiting precedent that would essentially turn a state with no "stop and ID" statute into one where refusal to show (or refusal to carry at all times? What's the difference really?) ID could become a crime.
So this could be something very important, and much much bigger than marring one person's crystal clean criminal history.
Furthermore, this is an open forum, that anyone can come and glean information from. I am here to seek relevant case law. Someone else could read a very detail oriented thread, realize it was the case they were soon to be prosecuting, and begin stocking up on their own legal ammo.
So I hope you can understand why a blow by blow account including irrelevant (in the purview of the law) details such as:
were not included.
Look, I am here for help and info. I freely admit to being a relative layman regarding "lawyer stuff". So if there is a detail that you would like to know that is relevant to what advice / info you'd like to share just ask. If you're here for a story I am sorry to disappoint for now, but that story will certainly be available in the future.
There have been some really great posts pointing me in the right direction. I truly appreciate that.
If I'm allowed, I'd like to request that opinions on standing firmly by your rights be left to your own thread. Believe me I appreciate those in support but the back and forth is the train wreck someone already predicted.
Thank you all for your time, you don't owe me and I appreciate it.
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gc70
Member
An RDO (...resist, delay or obstruct...) charge is typically used in NC when an individual is interfering with an investigation.
Was the person arrested at the scene of a police investigation? In short, were the police dealing with any other issue besides asking for the ID of the person arrested?
Was the person who was arrested asked to leave the scene before being arrested?
I understand reluctance to reveal details that might influence the outcome of an ongoing case, so simple yes or no answers to the above questions will provide perspective that might help explain the charge.
ZeroJunk
Member
I was asked for ID by an NC prison guard looking for an escaped convict at least 45 years ago. I had come out of the woods after dark and was resting sitting on the railroad tracks. So, if it's a slippery slope it's not very steep.
All and all, I don't see how they can do their jobs if everybody decides they aren't willing to furnish an ID trying to prove some point.
Simplest thing to do is show them an ID and go on about your business. Spend your nickle on something less innocuous.
All and all, I don't see how they can do their jobs if everybody decides they aren't willing to furnish an ID trying to prove some point.
Simplest thing to do is show them an ID and go on about your business. Spend your nickle on something less innocuous.
lobo9er
Member
yeah i agree with zero junk.
even if all charges are dropped is it worth the hassle? whats your time worth to you? I wasn't there so I dont know how things went down. But if time comes where I feel like its time to making a points I would be carrying a cheap audio recorder or video recorder with me.
Right now open carry where legal does draw attention and it may do more for our cause to be polite and even go out of our way to show that you (or we) are a law abiding tax payer that is doing nothing to harm anyone.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yep. All in all the police's request for identification isn't an actual burden, but people have such a kneejerk reaction to authority...
Help for what? You started with a hypothetical query with some facts that you tried to tie together that didn't work well and are now revising the hypothetical. Only it isn't hypothetical, is it?
I highly doubt a prosecutor would be boning up on his legal knowledge by reading a gun forum query on identification. S/he probbly already knows the law and/or knows where to find information necessary for making a case.
The bottom line is that you aren't going to be able to ask for legal details for a hypothetical situation that you are presenting that is parallel to some reality known to you and expect to get relevant help when you don't include the proper relevant data because you fear somebody will recognize the case. You are going to gets answers to questions that won't fit your reality because you haven't included all the salient information.
You need real life actual legal help. I am not sure why you picked a gun forum to ask a legal question about identification. You wouldn't go to an automotive forum to ask for information to fix a hypothetical blender, would you?
Fuller Malarky
Member
Quote ZeroJunk
I was asked for ID by an NC prison guard looking for an escaped convict at least 45 years
Get real. Cops "demand" ID so they can go on a fishing expedition. If my actions warrant an arrest or criminal charge, they won't be asking for ID. They will be requesting me to assume the position. Without an arrest, demanding ID is no different than the cop stating that he wants to hang me, and do I have a rope? I am under no obligation to supply him that rope in most states. It is an invasion of my privacy. I am protected under the Bill Of Rights from this kind of harassment, search, and invasion.
Much has been mentioned about respect towards the police officer. In these instances involving demands for ID, who initiated the original show of disrespect?
I was asked for ID by an NC prison guard looking for an escaped convict at least 45 years
Get real. Cops "demand" ID so they can go on a fishing expedition. If my actions warrant an arrest or criminal charge, they won't be asking for ID. They will be requesting me to assume the position. Without an arrest, demanding ID is no different than the cop stating that he wants to hang me, and do I have a rope? I am under no obligation to supply him that rope in most states. It is an invasion of my privacy. I am protected under the Bill Of Rights from this kind of harassment, search, and invasion.
Much has been mentioned about respect towards the police officer. In these instances involving demands for ID, who initiated the original show of disrespect?
ZeroJunk
Member
OK. Let me rephrase. If you don't have any outstanding warrants show them your ID and go on about your business.
JohnBT
Member
"Without an arrest, demanding ID is no different than the cop stating that he wants to hang me, and do I have a rope?"
Oh dear. Are you a drama coach or something?
Oh dear. Are you a drama coach or something?
Deanimator
Member
If they can't do their "jobs" within the confines of the law, then they need to find other suitable employment.
If the law doesn't require me to have or show ID, THAT'S IT.
Police can obey the law or not. "Not" isn't an option.
Deanimator
Member
Having my rights violated is a "hassle" and certainly not worth it.
If police aren't forced to obey the law, why even have them?
Deanimator
Member
And if you don't have any contraband, let them search your car and home? How often and in what detail?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Aahhhh, I see that the opposing camps have established the lines of battle and assumed their respective trenches.
As several have noted, there really don't seem to be any specifics to inform our debate ... so we're just arguing the principle, again.
To the OP: Search our archives on this topic. Read, carefully, the thread I linked. If you still have questions, post your VERY SPECIFIC question with as much context and corroborating detail as you can provide.
As several have noted, there really don't seem to be any specifics to inform our debate ... so we're just arguing the principle, again.
To the OP: Search our archives on this topic. Read, carefully, the thread I linked. If you still have questions, post your VERY SPECIFIC question with as much context and corroborating detail as you can provide.
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