Texas 30.06 questions

[Daniel T]

The company that I work for has an anti-gun policy like most large companies. There are signs on the doors that say that no weapons are allowed, etc.

None of the signs are legally binding against a CHL holder, as they do not contain the legally required verbage: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun".

When I interviewed at this company, I had to sign a card that stipulated that weapons were not allowed, including those carried by CHL holders. However, this card also did not contain the exact verbage required by the 30.06 statute. It wasn't even close, so it was not legally binding.

I have no doubts that I would be fired if I carried concealed and was discovered. I can accept that risk if I decide to CCW at work. I also have no doubts that the police would be called in an attempt to have me arrested for carrying a legally concealed weapon. My first questions: could I just walk out before the police arrived? If security personnel attempted to stop me by force, would I have a lawsuit? What would the police do when they arrived? Would they know the law well enough to know that I had done nothing wrong? Would they take a "arrest now, sort it out later" approach?

So, as a theoretical exercise, say that the card I signed had actually had the correct 30.06 verbage on it. How long does that bind you from legal CCW? The door signs would still be wrong, and I don't have to sign one of those cards every time I come to work, so would I still be bound by it? Does that card bind me for just that visit? The whole day? A week? Forever?

 

[chrisher]

If you are terminated for CCW against company policy, you are a private citizen at that time. Most companies now days have security escort you out at the time of termination. If you do not cause trouble,ie; "...OK, I'm terminated. I'll be on my way now.." they CANNOT touch you at all. If anyone from the company does touch you, GET A LAWYER (assault). My guess is you'll be asked to be searched before any disiplinary action is taken. Check your company policy manual. There's usually a notation stating that the company can search you, your car, your briefcase at any time. By accepting employment, you agree to this. PS. I'm NOT a lawyer.

PPS: If you are asked to be searched (per company policy) you have 3 options:

1. Allow the search
2. Refuse (Resign on the spot)
3. Refuse (Be terminated on the spot)

 

[Yanus]

I am an IT consultant working on a gig for a firm with similar views. No 30.06 signs, but the usual "red slash through the gun sticker". What this means is one of their employees can be fired for carrying. However, if someone carries on the property with a CHL, they cannot be prosecuted by the state. The individual can only be asked to leave the premisis if discovered. The suspected reason for this is financial liability in the event of
a violent incident. If the company posted the 30.06 signs and something happened, they would most likely be sued, BIG TIME! This way, if a CHL happens to stop an incident, they win either way...............

Yanus

 

[HankB]

I, too, work in Texas.

My employer has posted compliant signs at "some" of the entrances - not all of them. My (non-lawyer's!) interpretation is that if I am caught carrying a concealed licensed handgun, since not all entrances are posted, I could not be successfully prosecuted unless I'm asked to leave and refuse.

However, Texas being an "employment at will" state, I would expect to be fired immediately. So . . . I don't carry at work.

As far as the card you signed carrying exact 30.06 wording . . . there's a good chance that, if they wanted to push it, you'd possibly be in for some trouble. IIRC from my CHL class, being handed a card with proper verbage would constitute being given proper notice under the law.

As far as searches and such go . . . you had best consult with a real lawyer. I can see ALL KINDS of trouble coming here, both for the employee and the company, depending on circumstances.

 

[labgrade]

Beats me, Demise, & coudn't even begin to address your issues legally.

From what I've garnered for private property, they can do anything they want - & frankly, doubtful you'd want it any other way, no? other than that clause of being disarmed, but you did accept employment with this company ......

Life sucks & then you die, &you did buy ito their "disarmament process," huh?

I hate it all.

I once had a job with a Boulder, CO start-up disc-drive company. A co-worker was very curious about my .309 JDJ Contender. So I asked my Supervisor what was the "weapons policy" regards = yada ... I only wanted to be able to show this firearm in the parking lot - the trick trigger-pull, & explain the ballistics.

No Sale! & (although even before, I've always been on the "It's always easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission." theme), ...

Turns out, since there was no offiial policy, I brought the gun to work, showed it off - yada. Caused o amount of "unreality," & this, in the same building that had the Boulder Bank who was touting "get a Weatherby for a free CD account"

Really too much of a hoot! in a way. Bank of Bolder, when they were very much in the fore-front of "giving away" firearms for a minimum CD investment.

Bank of Boulder moved out just afterwards - with absolutely zip for security - a 2-man team could've "re-secured" every one of their vault fearms with about as much as someone shopping for cabbage.

I watched it all happen = 3-5 vans full of vintage Weatherbys, Rem "vintage" flintlocks, all the very best trick "modern/vintage" nifty-stuffs .... all walking out the door with zip for any security - two guys could've ripped this entire shipment for the cost of $5 worth of gas - & the fore-knowledge & will to just do it.

I was "repremanded," no real clause in the HR policies, so it didn't go anywhere & as soon as we Chaptered 11, I took over for 8 Process & 13 Tool Design Engineers - the Super lost his job as well.

No point - just historical fact.

All rediculous, but don't ever count on such favorable events.

Likey, you're HR plicy is fairly enough set in stone that you will lose your job.

Worth it?

If it is "worth it," I'd very much suggest a policy of "don't tell." NEVER bring it up, NEVER allow anyone else to know - NOBODY! Hear me!?

You hold this info tighter than if you were having an affair with your Wife's best friend & would be so totally screwed you'd never recoup personal, or finacial losts.

I'm totally serious about that, Demise.

& this from what you could consider a very best friend.

Hug'n kisses.

 

[Daniel T]

HankB:

As far as the card you signed carrying exact 30.06 wording . . . there's a good chance that, if they wanted to push it, you'd possibly be in for some trouble. IIRC from my CHL class, being handed a card with proper verbage would constitute being given proper notice under the law.

It would, if it really had the proper verbage. The one I signed did not. It went something like: "You are not allowed to carry a concealed handgun (even if legally licensed) on Company X's property. Blah blah blah." So, under the letter of the law, it did not constitute proper written notice.

My theortical question was this: if the card had the proper verbage, how long would it be binding? Would the property owner have to pass out a card to everyone of every visit? Would doing it once mean that I was forevermore barred from legal CCW on that property?

labgrade:

You hold this info tighter than if you were having an affair with your Wife's best friend & would be so totally screwed you'd never recoup personal, or finacial losts.

No worries on that count, my friend. If (and I probably will not) I ever carry at work, no one will ever know. No body.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Demise,
Simple. The card you signed was a condition of employment. It does not have to be in 30.06 verbage. 30.06 is only a formal written form of notification to be posted, usually at a major entrance. Regardless of the business, a CHL person with gun can be asked to leave if it is discovered they are carrying, WITHOUT the 30.06 sign present. The 30.06 simple negates the verbal need from management/owner from having to verbally ask you to leave themselves and saves headaches when dealing with upset patrons who carry.

As for your employment, 30.06 can apply, but not necessarily. You signed a card as a condition of employment. There is probably a statement in a employee handbook or policy manual that says NO WEAPONS allowed. You may have been told verbally that no weapons are allowed. These are ALL VALID means of notification for employment matters and violation of the notified wishes may mean your termination from a job.

Put another way, the management/owner has the right to exclude your gun carrying activities in many manners, ESPECIALLY as an employee. Such employee laws were in place long before 30.06. You can be fired for unprofessional conduct. That too is in your handbook (probably), or any other sort of activity not wished. Such includes gun and non gun activities/items.

If you want to know if the policy is still in place, ask. Otherwise, it is a conditional of employment that remains as a condition of employment so long as you are employed...until which time there has been a policy change and the old condition removed. At that time, you will likely have to sign more paperwork.

In no way does a CHL override your employer's right to limit firearm carrying by employees. It is not a 30.06 matter, although the employer may choose to use 30.06.

This should have all been covered by your CHL instructor.

 

[westex]

Demise
Your situation occurs on a fairly regular basis. The way I look at situations like this is that I have been certified by the State of Texas to legally carry a concealed handgun within the border of the state unless approprite signage is used prohibiting this or specific places are excluded by law.

The key word in all that is "concealed". Follow that word's true meaning and you should have no problems. In my dictionary it means: kept secret, hidden, kept quite about, secure and covered up. If you have a problem with any of these then I suggest you leave it somewhere off your body.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think some of y'all missed the point of employment. Sure, concealed means concealed, but as we have seen in other threads here at THR, people occasionally get spotted. It isn't supposed to happen, but it does. Just becasue you have a CHL, however, does not make it legal or right to carry where you have been informed by an employer, verbally, in writing (30.06 verbage not needed for employment conditions), or via a 30.06 sign that you are not to have a gun at work. This can include all, ALL company grounds, vehicles, etc., and any time you are on the company's dime.

It means ZERO to the employer that you legally had a CHL just like it would mean zilch if you were told not to operate the employer's machinery for which you were licensed to operate. The license means nothing. You are breaking the rules and in regard to CHL law, the fact that you have been informed by your employer and signed something to the effect that says you know you can't carry at work, you are in violation of Texas trespass laws. 30.06 is ONLY for public posting purposes. It can apply to employment, but what the employee signs, company policy books, or verbal communication with a superior need not follow 30.06 verbage. If you check CHL laws for Texas, you will see nothing that says 30.06 verbage must be used in written/signed contracts or in verbal communication. To ask a patron to leave (not employee), it is NOT necessary to produce a 30.06 sign or use 30.06 verbage. It does NOT have to be posted by a company that they don't want concealed carry. If spotted at any time, they have the right to ask you to leave and once they ask you to leave, refusal to do so puts you in violation of trespass laws. That is the law.

 

[Daniel T]

Double Naught Spy, I am aware that it would mean my termination if I was discovered with a concealed weapon. My questions were about the legal ramifications.

You are breaking the rules and in regard to CHL law, the fact that you have been informed by your employer and signed something to the effect that says you know you can't carry at work, you are in violation of Texas trespass laws.

The Texas Penal Code seems to say otherwise:

§ 30.06. Trespass by Holder of License to Carry Concealed Handgun

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that:

(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or

(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

For the record, concealed weapons have never been addressed verbally by my employer, which leaves written communication, which must meet the explicit requirements listed above. No written communication I have ever received meets the requirements 30.06.

So, how would I be in violation of Texas trespass laws if I left as soon as I was asked to? Don't say it isn't a 30.06 matter, 30.06 is the law that creates Trespass by Holder of License to Carry Concealed Handgun. Sections 46.03 and 46.035 outline clearly where a CHL does not allow CCW. 30.06 allows more locations to be off-limits, but it is very strict about how those locations must be designated.

So, what am I missing? Why do you think I would still be trespassing?

 

[Standing Wolf]

Lives are harder to replace than jobs.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I wholly stand corrected on the posting aspect. I am surprised you didn't have the personnel folks go over the 'rules' with you. That would constitute the verbal communication and usually that is a point brought out, one of many, guns, workplace violence, drugs, and then illegal activities beyond violence and drugs.

With that said, if you were asked if you understood what you signed or any reference was made to the code of conduct or whatever your conpany calls it, then you have oral communication of their wishes, or so they will likely argue. Can you substantiate no verbal communication on the matter? They have the card you signed and will argue it was discussed (if they are jerks on the matter).

I misunderstood you initial post about being "legally binding." When it comes to terms of employment, it is legally binding. I don't usually think in terms of being a legally binding contract signed that pertains to written state law as you have no agreement with the state law on the card you signed, 30.06 or not.

With that said, even if the police are called, they likely will not arrest you should that happen unless they determine that you have in fact violated the law and your employer is insisting on pressing charges.

As for as the duration of being binding, assuming the text was correct on the card you signed, no doubt it would be indefinite as there is no date attached that stipulates duration. It is still being signed as part of employment conditions and will no doubt apply so long as you are employed.

 

[Lennyjoe]

 

[Daniel T]

Thanks for responding DNS; I'm glad we got things clarified.

With that said, if you were asked if you understood what you signed or any reference was made to the code of conduct or whatever your conpany calls it, then you have oral communication of their wishes, or so they will likely argue. Can you substantiate no verbal communication on the matter? They have the card you signed and will argue it was discussed (if they are jerks on the matter).

Hmm. I can see how that might be construed as oral notification. I doubt it would stand up in court, but it might be unpleasent in the interim. I've heard stories about our gung-ho security director which would make me think that he'd be just that kind of jackass.

 

[tiberius]

I really doubt that the company would take the time and effort to push for prosecutiuon. They would fire you and be done with it. They may use it as threat to prevent you from even thinking about a wrongful dismissal lawsuit but it is not really in their interest to get the police involved if you don't cause any trouble.