Cheney continues retreat on Murtha criticism
- Thread starter rick_reno
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ebd10
Member
Another thread about "who has the right to say and who doesn't". I find it interesting that most of the politicians against the war are military veterans, many who have served in combat, and that most of the politicians for the war either never served or never saw combat. No judgment, just an observation.
As to the lives lost since the end of combat operations, after WWII we lost something like 2000 American lives to combat actions against NAZI holdouts, between 1945-48. I'm not sure how many we lost in the Pacific. The fact is, the war is over, the occupation is what we're dealing with now. It's too late to turn back without looking weak and indecisive, let's just do what we set out to do and get our troops out of there so that they can all go back to killing each other.
As to the lives lost since the end of combat operations, after WWII we lost something like 2000 American lives to combat actions against NAZI holdouts, between 1945-48. I'm not sure how many we lost in the Pacific. The fact is, the war is over, the occupation is what we're dealing with now. It's too late to turn back without looking weak and indecisive, let's just do what we set out to do and get our troops out of there so that they can all go back to killing each other.
And your source for this would be?
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Jeffrey Herf is associate professor of History at the University of Maryland. His expertise is Modern Germany, 20th century Europe, and European intellectual history.
Herf says: "Historians generally agree that the (Nazi) Werewolves were militarily insignificant and that armed attacks on American soldiers after May 8, 1945 were small in number."
Daniel Benjamin is co-author, with Steven Simon, of The Next Attack: The Failure of the War on Terror and a Strategy for Getting It Right. He served on the National Security Council staff 1994-1999. He wrote an article for Slate titled Condi's Phony History - Sorry, Dr. Rice, postwar Germany was nothing like Iraq. Simon states that "in practice, Werwolf amounted to next to nothing."
"Indeed, the organization merits but two passing mentions in Occupation of Germany [U.S. Army's official history, The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946], which dwells far more on how docile the Germans were once the Americans rolled in—and fraternization between former enemies was a bigger problem for the military than confrontation."
The claim that "2000 American lives to combat actions against NAZI holdouts" is simply incorrect. According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero."
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NavyDoc wrote
<snip>
You say that you're "doc"? People with graduate degrees in medicine do not usually have such problems spelling simple English words. E.g., It's "ideology," not "ideaology." Your habit of mispelling simple words makes you look illiterate and uneducated.
Also, they usually do not conflate the meanings of different words such as "deliberate" and "indiscriminate." Claiming that ordnance was used "indiscriminately" [or your made-up word "indiscriminantly"] deployed in an urban area does not have the same meaning as claiming that civilians were "deliberately targeted." People with advanced degrees usually have sufficient mastery over the language to avoid such mistakes.
You're not really a doctor, are you. I know that in the military, soldiers routinely address medics as "doc," but that doesn't make you one.
You claim to have flown combat missions over Iraq, but every combat pilot I have ever met has nerves of steel. You, on the other hand, have a tendency to rant, rave, throw temper tantrums, and spew lies at the slightest provocation.
And you're supposedly a combat pilot? Sure you are....
W is a well funded draft dodger, Texas pols admitted they slipped W ahead in the line for the Texas ANG to curry favor with Pappa Bush.
Tricky Dick II, aka Cheney ,was a pore boy DD.
He was also a trade unionist, when that was in his best interests and a radical Republican when that was in his best interests, in other words, a person who blows with the wind, that is , a typical pol with no ethics.
His boss does not even know what the word " Ethics" means, oh well!
We are really short of so called , "Public Servants" , who understand that public service does not mean impregnating as many cute girls as possible in the shortest possible time!
Tricky Dick II, aka Cheney ,was a pore boy DD.
He was also a trade unionist, when that was in his best interests and a radical Republican when that was in his best interests, in other words, a person who blows with the wind, that is , a typical pol with no ethics.
His boss does not even know what the word " Ethics" means, oh well!
We are really short of so called , "Public Servants" , who understand that public service does not mean impregnating as many cute girls as possible in the shortest possible time!
gc70
Member
javafiend, does the number zero not strike you as just a teeny weeny bit improbable?
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
That's a standard political play. Figure out what your oponent is going to do before he does it, then get on the news and demand that he do it. When he does what he was going to do all along, you score points by making it look like you forced him to do it. It's kinda clever, in a twisted sort of way.gc70 said:
It's possible that there is nothing more to this Murtha business than that.
gc70 wrote:
I was almost surprised to read that, but you know that the RAND Corporation is not exactly a cesspool of dope-smoking slackers or ideologues. They have a sterling reputation for conducting solid research.
Also, I lived in Germany, I speak German fluently, and know a little about the history. It really shouldn't surprise us that once Berlin fell, Hitler was dead, and the government surrendered, that the Germans would stop fighting the Allies and get to the task of rebuilding their country. By and large, German soldiers captured by the American Army recognized their fortune at not having been taken prisoner by the Russians. German civilians fled west and were expelled as the Red Army raped its way to Berlin. The Germans in the Allied zone needed only to look east to know that their situation could have been far worse.
I was almost surprised to read that, but you know that the RAND Corporation is not exactly a cesspool of dope-smoking slackers or ideologues. They have a sterling reputation for conducting solid research.
Also, I lived in Germany, I speak German fluently, and know a little about the history. It really shouldn't surprise us that once Berlin fell, Hitler was dead, and the government surrendered, that the Germans would stop fighting the Allies and get to the task of rebuilding their country. By and large, German soldiers captured by the American Army recognized their fortune at not having been taken prisoner by the Russians. German civilians fled west and were expelled as the Red Army raped its way to Berlin. The Germans in the Allied zone needed only to look east to know that their situation could have been far worse.
gc70
Member
Agreed, the Rand Corporation does excellent work.
At the very least, it seems extremely improbable that every single German and Japanese soldier learned of the surrenders of their respective countries and laid down their weapons at the designated time of cessation of hostilities. Isolation and poor communications would have made such an outcome effectively impossible.
Given the above, I would focus my curiousity on the term 'post-conflict' in your reference. The cutoff point had to be clearly defined.
This website on Japanese Holdouts cites some isolated groups fighting (and killing) Americans into 1946-1947.
At the very least, it seems extremely improbable that every single German and Japanese soldier learned of the surrenders of their respective countries and laid down their weapons at the designated time of cessation of hostilities. Isolation and poor communications would have made such an outcome effectively impossible.
Given the above, I would focus my curiousity on the term 'post-conflict' in your reference. The cutoff point had to be clearly defined.
This website on Japanese Holdouts cites some isolated groups fighting (and killing) Americans into 1946-1947.
Old Dog
Member
Here now is a unique perspective:
And the situation in Iraq can in no way, shape or form be compared to the occupation of post-war Germany.
P.S. - Javafiend, you may want to refer to Forum Rules, #4.
Nope, sorry, what's going on now IS a war.
And the situation in Iraq can in no way, shape or form be compared to the occupation of post-war Germany.
P.S. - Javafiend, you may want to refer to Forum Rules, #4.
Actually I'm a lousy typist...mea culpa.
I graduated from the University Of Michigan School of Medicine, in Ann Arbor. the dean of admissions at the time was Dean Deakus (and no, I cannot remmeber how to spell his name). I frequented Angelo's Coffee shop right across from Med Sci building one.
Before I went to med school and after I graduated from the Naval Academy (30th company on deck 4-2, which was (before the remodle) right above the Dant's office spaces on 4-1), I was a Naval Flight Officer for a time, not a pilot. I never said I was a pilot, but used the term NFO. NFO's are the "backseater" or "goose" as it were, but apparently, since you know nothing about the military, you did not realize that. I served with VT-10, VP-30, VP-1.
Before I went to Annapolis, I was a regular 0311 grunt. Nothing special, just a ground pounder.
Since one cannot refute facts or logic, one has to resort to personal attacks.
Typical.
Since Java so vigorously challenges others on this board, I'd like to see him present his particulars.
As for "nerves of steel". You call it a rant, I call it a well deserved tongue lashing directed at an errant individual.
I graduated from the University Of Michigan School of Medicine, in Ann Arbor. the dean of admissions at the time was Dean Deakus (and no, I cannot remmeber how to spell his name). I frequented Angelo's Coffee shop right across from Med Sci building one.
Before I went to med school and after I graduated from the Naval Academy (30th company on deck 4-2, which was (before the remodle) right above the Dant's office spaces on 4-1), I was a Naval Flight Officer for a time, not a pilot. I never said I was a pilot, but used the term NFO. NFO's are the "backseater" or "goose" as it were, but apparently, since you know nothing about the military, you did not realize that. I served with VT-10, VP-30, VP-1.
Before I went to Annapolis, I was a regular 0311 grunt. Nothing special, just a ground pounder.
Since one cannot refute facts or logic, one has to resort to personal attacks.
Typical.
Since Java so vigorously challenges others on this board, I'd like to see him present his particulars.
As for "nerves of steel". You call it a rant, I call it a well deserved tongue lashing directed at an errant individual.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
javafiend, Hackworth's recounting of his early days in the Army will get you past zero in post-WW II fatalities among US military personnel. Not that I'm claiming large numbers, but they were indeed the results of gunfire from "holdouts". IIRC he was in the Balkans.
Might be something in his archived articles at his website.
I don't recall any guys talking about any sort of organized effort, from my own BSing with old timers in my Army daze. There was some commentary about GIs getting murdered in what might have been "ordinary" robbery efforts, done by leftover Nazis. The old "That's a rough area. You don't want to go there at night."
Art
Might be something in his archived articles at his website.
I don't recall any guys talking about any sort of organized effort, from my own BSing with old timers in my Army daze. There was some commentary about GIs getting murdered in what might have been "ordinary" robbery efforts, done by leftover Nazis. The old "That's a rough area. You don't want to go there at night."
Art
DRZinn
Member
NavyDoc:
Don't respond to that kind of idiotic post. Do you have to prove yourself to him?
Good point DocZinn.
I'm afraid I've been descibed as a Quixote-esque character: idealistic and always ready for a fight.
I find it rather ironic though, that perhaps one of the most anti-military and most condescending to vets poster on this board, who, never having served a day in the military in his life, criticises Cheney for not having served in the military.
It truely boggles the mind.....
I'm afraid I've been descibed as a Quixote-esque character: idealistic and always ready for a fight.
I find it rather ironic though, that perhaps one of the most anti-military and most condescending to vets poster on this board, who, never having served a day in the military in his life, criticises Cheney for not having served in the military.
It truely boggles the mind.....
Manedwolf
member
RealGun said:
Yes, right.
Legitimate = family has lots of money and influence.
Of course.
RealGun
Member
Manedwolf said:
Assuming this deserves a response, Cheney comes from a common background. Students were routinely allowed to stay in school. As soon as they graduated they became OCS fodder, pick a service or be drafted.
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