Chicago already cracking down on CCW instructors

[jim243]

Illinois is the only State that requires 16 hours of class. THE ONLY ONE. It is a raciest policy to keep the blacks and Hispanic from getting CCL's because of the inflated cost of the classes and CCL lic. If and when this goes to court, you will see that the raciest undertone of this law will be thrown out. It is a shame that the Chicago politicians once again cast their shadow on what otherwise is a fine State. In my opinion the US Attorney General should prosecute all Chicago politicians since they ALL are crooks. (make no mistake about that) The opinion around here is that the Chicago and Cook County politicians are thieves in it for their own personal gain and not to serve the people.

Jim

 

[CZSIG]

I don't believe the premise that the state is going out of its way to make sure every student gets their moneys worth.
The story that the state prosecutor or his staff came up with "unnamed sources" who complained is fishy.
They didn't have to plant anyone, they just had to say someone complained.

Do I believe they would put the end ahead of the means? Absolutely.
The end is to prevent keeping and bearing.

 

[CZSIG]

...... In my opinion the US Attorney General should prosecute all Chicago politicians since they ALL are crooks. (make no mistake about that)

Jim

Good luck with AG Holder doing that.

 

[vamo]

Has this problem ever, ever been reported in any other state? Many of which have had such classes for 20+ yrs. Yet, in the first few weeks in IL, it's been reported twice within days of each other?

Yes see my post. Person in MO tried applying for a permit at 2:00pm when their paperwork said their 8 hour class started at 9:00am. Not sure what the eventual outcome of that case was, but the instructor was rightfully in hot water. If any state with a training requirement finds out an instructor is lying about completed training that instructor is in major trouble.

 

[hso]

Thanks rtroha, I'm glad someone pointed out that the City of Chicago (and Cook County) had nothing to do with the issue. The Chicago Tribune reported it, the trainers are "down state", the State of IL is the authority regulating the training and qualifications of the trainers.

It might be a good idea if people read the article on page 18 about getting your money's worth from trainers in IL. This came out BEFORE the Trib article.
http://www.gunssavelife.com/GunNews_Feb2014web.pdf

 

[David E]

Yes see my post. Person in MO tried applying for a permit at 2:00pm when their paperwork said their 8 hour class started at 9:00am. Not sure what the eventual outcome of that case was, but the instructor was rightfully in hot water. If any state with a training requirement finds out an instructor is lying about completed training that instructor is in major trouble.

That's a different problem, as the student did not complain about it.

When has a student signed up for an 8 hour class, then reported to the authorities that they only got 7 hours and 45 minutes ?

That's the point.

 

[David E]

Thanks rtroha, I'm glad someone pointed out that the City of Chicago (and Cook County) had nothing to do with the issue.

Then you do not understand Illinois politics.

Start with Chicago until it's proven otherwise.....but 99+% of the time, it won't be.

 

[Sol]

Maybe the student reported it because they shelled out some cash for a 16 hour class and walked away with less and felt ripped off.

Maybe the student was some anti plant who's job was to gripe about not getting the full 16 hours, hence getting rid of the instructor and revoking the permits of his past students.

Maybe....I'm glad I don't live in Illinois.

 

[vamo]

That's a different problem, as the student did not complain about it.

When has a student signed up for an 8 hour class, then reported to the authorities that they only got 7 hours and 45 minutes ?

That's the point.

Or what if it was only 5 hours and the student thought they would be violating the law and could be in very deep trouble if it was ever found out. That would be my concern in that situation. I took an 8hr training class and it was basically a refresher of stuff I already knew, I would have felt perfectably capable of carrying with much less than the minimum required by my state. But I don't want to be in violation of the law its why I took the class in the first place.

And that is my point the instructor screwed up here we can complain all we want about the overly stringent training requirement in IL. But if the instructor is providing less than the required training then they're asking for whats about to come their way, and probably getting their own students in trouble (or atleast permits invalidated) in the process.

 

[cambeul41]

How that 16 hours is divided up might seriously impact how much is learned.

Sixteen straight hours? Forget it. Two 8-hour days with no break for lunch? Almost as bad. Four 4-hour days? Better, but some students would find it inconvenient to schedule.

I think I am with AlexanderA on this.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

About 15 years ago, when Texas' Permit class was longer, I recall our instructor saying first thing "yes, we have to be here all X hours. The state surveys students and even occasionally sends someone to sit through my class and make sure you are here as long as you are supposed to be. If they find out you didn't sit here that long, they take away my instructor license and might revoke your CHL as well."

So it isn't limited to Illinois.

Oklahoma was the same way when I taught there. Here in Kansas we are required to have a minimum of 8 hours including the range qualification portion.
More time is often needed for the students who have little, or no, shooting experience.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm scheduled to take my 16 hours of class time (which includes proficiency testing and range time) in late April. I hate to be a dissenter but there is plenty of material to be covered and range time and I'm paying for 16 hours of instruction and ammunition and all that.

If I didn't get 16 hours I'd have to file a complaint - we are the last State to get concealed carry and it is a bit of a hostile camp here in some respects. This must all be done "by the book" on all our parts. I have no problem fulfilling the 16 hours and I'll pay what it costs.

But I want my 16 hours 'cause I don't ever cheat and I do not hold with being cheated neither.

VooDoo

 

[km101]

If I were in IL here in the early phases of the carry permit system I'd like a very thorough discussion of all the laws and peculiarities (focused on the State as the threat).

In Texas the classroom requirement has been cut to 4-5 hours. And I thought that everything relevant was covered, so I can understand some people wanting a shortcut.
But the law says 16 hours! If you are not willing to do this then don't apply. But in the end it is the instructor who controls the class and any deviation from the requirements is his responsibility. If you want to be an instructor, you gotta follow the rules.

And I think that whoever said that the "complainers" were "plants" is spot on. No one else would have any reason to complain. It was a set up!

 

[TRX]

Video is ridiculously cheap nowadays.

The cost of recording EVERY class day and keeping copies for a month or three wouldn't be much. A lipstick cam and a $100 hard drive, maybe a video board upgrade, bingo-bango.

If anyone accuses you of cutting corners, make them sit through the entire disputed session(s) in real time, no fast-forwarding...

 

[TennJed]

The students would "complain" if they were anti-gun plants.

And that scenario makes much more sense than multiple students "complaining" that they were shorted on their 16 hrs of "training."

It sends the message to every instructor in IL that they better dot every i and cross every t, lest they give the anti-gunners a reason to point and whine: "see? We told you it wouldn't work! We need stricter guidelines..."

No, it really doesn't make more sense. Keep in mind that most of the people taking this class are probably not "like us". They may actually want to learn something and feel like the instructor should do his job. If they paid for 16 hrs and didn't get it, they have a right to complain

 

[Jeff White]

The two instructors are from St Clair County which is right across the river from St Louis MO. The ISP has forwarded details of the charges to the St Clair County states attorney for prosecution.

As onerous as the requirements are, they are the law and any instructor violating it or any student taking advantage of it have broken the law.

I suppose if charges are filed we will know the names of the instructors.

 

[Invisible Swordsman]

This issue has come up in Ohio too. A number of instructors have done much less than the minimum (we require 12 hours). The result for the student is to be out the money they paid for instruction, loss of their ccw (and the application fee) and the cost to take another class and apply again for their license.

Unfortunately, quick buck artists and cheaters show up in all groups.

 

[vamo]

Unfortunately, quick buck artists and cheaters show up in all groups.

Yes and I have to believe its worse in a state that has just passed a shall issue ccw law. A lot of pent up demand, and an opportunity to make quick money out there.

 

[MrGlock45]

I'm in PA. I do understand that in IL the law requires a full 16 hrs of mandated training. Here in PA, there is no "mandated" training. The sheriff will probably recommend you get some training though.
We have the second largest number of concealed carry holders in the nation. We have a LTCF (license to carry firearms,) but it's still a permit. I believe we are close to 900,000 LTCF in the State of PA. I believe FL is the only state with more, they are around 1.1 million last I read.
I've had mine for nearly 41 yrs. now. By the way, PA has a very low incidence of LTCF holders who commit crimes. YMMV but I think mandating class time is a violation on a G-d given Right, to self defense.

As always, stay safe.

 

[threefeathers]

When I sponsored Mas last November a Cooke County CCW instructor was in the class, (Tucson) he was sharp as a tack so I doubt he was one of them. He and I did have some time to talk (just before my heart attack) and he was anticipating harassment from Chicago political bosses and their goons.

 

[Jeff White]

The two instructors were from St Clair County just across the river from St Louis.