CHL and Deferred Adjudication

[angrypistols]

So, my 21yo son wants to pursue his Texas CHL and I would like to ask for some advice on his behalf. First off, I would refer to him as being a reponsible mature young man, and has learned from his mistake. Nonetheless, he was charged with a DWI when he was 17, and offered a 'pre-trial diversion' which he met the requirements for and recieved deferred adjudication. In my understanding for the CHL, is the same as a conviction.

Since this incident, he has not had any legal or financial trouble and we know that he is not eligible for a Texas CHL for another 2 years. I had my wife call and get registered for her own CHL class and she mentioned my son's predicament to the instructor. His instructions were for him to take the class here in TX and to pursue a CHL licensing in Florida, where, according to him, they don't particularly care about his DWI. I checked DPS' website, and they indeed offer recipriocity(sp?) with our great state.

So my question is this, can he do this, legally? I hate to give him bad advice, and him end up in a jackpot because he is a Texas resident with a Florida CHL.

I appreciate the opportunity to post my question and to draw upon the vast wealth of information of the forum.

Angry

 

[CoRoMo]

Yes, getting a nonresident permit is perfectly legal. Thousands upon thousands of Americans have done this. It is a good idea for many, and the only way available for others.

I disagree that the deferral is as good as a conviction. It shouldn't be on his record at all, and it shouldn't have affected his vehicle insurance. You can check all this out easily enough. I'm speaking from a Colorado standpoint of course. I've employed guys that have deferred a DUI, and they were insurable, and their background was clear of the incident.

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't know if the statement Florida "doesn't particularly care about his DUI" is entirely accurate. Utah has very similar rules to FL and here it's a six-year wait. Someone from FL might know for sure, but I doubt that FL will issue a permit right now under those circumstances.

 

[lawson4]

I think most states won't honor a non-resident permit issued to one of its residents. If he can't get a Texas permit, the state probably won't honor the non-resident permit
This was done years ago in Michigan; they have since changed the law.

Rick

 

[IllHunter]

I an illinois resident have an out of state cc lic. It is not valid in my home state, but is legal in Pa, (where I got it) and in states that honor Pa.'s license, incl. Texas.
Proving conclusively,it's not about responsibility, trust or anything other than control, more precisly, power.

 

[Thedub88]

I was under the impression that you need a carry permit in your home state to get a non res in another state

 

[CoRoMo]

I think most states won't honor a non-resident permit issued to one of its residents.

That's not correct. Most states do honor the nonresident permits that are held by their residents. Colorado, Florida, Michigan, Maine, New Hampshire do not.

Texas Honors Non-Resident Permits/Licenses

 

[Zoogster]

Utah has very similar rules to FL and here it's a six-year wait.

Utah?! Utah has a very strong Mormon influence, and so alcohol is still the devil according to many.
Utah has the lowest consumption of alcohol in the United States, and very strong social taboos against it among many of the residents.
This translates into a society where just drinking is seen as a bad vice, so actually doing something wrong that relates to alcohol is going to be viewed extremely harshly.
Which will be reflected in the legislation of the state.

Florida on the other hand is the tourist and party destination for much of the Eastern side of the United States. The warmest nearby destination, especially during the colder months of the year.
Where most social gatherings have alcohol.


Much of Utah sees just the act of drinking itself as bad. So if someone actually breaks the law while drinking they are going to have restrictions and stigma attached well beyond that of most states.
As a result I would venture that the stigma and restrictions for Utah, with its strong Mormon culture and dislike for alcohol, will be far greater than for Florida, with its strong tourist and party culture.


(I don't condone DUI and think people should be punished who choose to risk the lives of others after drinking, whether it was at a restaurant with dinner or at a bar or party. Reducing the speed of your reaction time even with a couple drinks is choosing to put others in danger.
Often driving a motorcycle I have less tolerance for drunk drivers than many. Such drivers often hit and run leaving people to die, be hit by another vehicle, or not receive prompt medical help. People who would have survived, just so they can try and get away with their crimes. I often keep a hidden camera recording on my vehicle for just that reason.)

 

[mljdeckard]

Utah has recently relaxed a lot of alcohol laws, and is far from being the most restrictive in the nation. Utah has bar carry, restaurants where alcohol is served carry, and the standard for carrying while intoxicated is the same as driving while intoxicated. (.08). In Utah, we don't view drinking as bad, we view IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR as bad.

In your anti-mormon ranting, did you bother to even look and see what Florida's law is?

 

[Zoogster]

It was not anti-Mormom. It was citing the reason for most of the dislike for alcohol. The Mormon church is very influential in Utah, and it traditionally is very much against alcohol consumption.


It is not just an assumption, it is a fact, and a fact which contributes to the following:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,640189717,00.html

• The lowest per-capita consumption of alcohol in the country (about a fourth of that of neighboring Nevada).

• The lowest percentage of alcohol-related motor-vehicle deaths in the country (according to the U.S. Census Bureau).

• The lowest mortality rate in the the country (45 deaths per 100,000 population).

It has been the lowest consumer of alcohol for a long time. Here is another article from the 80's
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...5YpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7YIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7107,4743213

What makes Utah different than the rest of the nation and why is it the lowest, and has been the lowest for at least a century? The Mormons and the Mormon influence.
This means not only the laws, but the members of a jury in Utah are more likely to really throw the book at anyone who misuses alcohol, not just because of the irresponsible behavior, but because alcohol use is already despised by a significant percentage.
So you are also more likely to see other restrictions tied to misuse of alcohol than in the rest of the nation. (Like concealed carry, even in a very pro gun location.)
In fact for the same reasons it is one of the last places I would want to have to defend myself after having a few drinks.

 

[mljdeckard]

And if you said it was unfavorable to try to rent an apartment in Brooklyn because the Jews control a lot of the real estate market, that would be perfectly fine, right?

By the way, in Florida, if you have had two alcohol related incidents within the previous three years, they will not issue a permit. It is inaccurate to say that they don't care about alcohol related offenses.

 

[CoRoMo]

Okay... well... trying to right this listing ship here.

I was under the impression that you need a carry permit in your home state to get a non res in another state

Of the states that I'm aware of, that issue nonresident permits, I don't know of any that require you to have a permit in your state.

 

[Rio Laxas]

Non-resident permits are recognized in Texas. I carried on an Arizona permit for several years before finally paying the much higher fees to get the Texas permit. I only did it because I was tired of having to go through a NICS check every time I purchased a firearm.

Second, I believe your son may be eligible for a Texas CHL. The legislature recently amended the Texas CHL law. Here is a summary of changes on the DPS website: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/HB2730finalanalysis.pdf

Your son may qualify if the conviction were set aside, vacated, annulled, invalidated, voided or sealed. Charles Cotton of the TSRA has stated that deferred adjudication would not fall under this because there was never a conviction, however, I know of one person that has gotten their CHL since this new legislation was passed. They did have to have an attorney threaten DPS in court with a writ of mandamus to get them to approve it.

This thread on Texas CHL forum may shed some light on the issue: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30943

 

[Sam1911]

Of the states that I'm aware of, that issue nonresident permits, I don't know of any that require you to have a permit in your state.

Unfortunately for many Marylanders, PA does in fact require you to hold a license or permit from your state -- IF that state issues one at all. As MD does issue a CCW permit, on an extremely limited basis, Marylanders who cannot obtain one also cannot obtain a PA LCTF.

 

[ProShooter]

A Utah non-res permit can be had without a home state permit.

 

[Hawaiian]

I would consult an attorney on this one. The penalty is too big to risk if they charge him with a firearm related offence.

I know that in Oregon, the statue considers the court ordered diversion program the same as a conviction of DUI. No it does not affect you auto insurance rates, but it does affect your qualification for a concealed handgun license.

I also have a young son who messed up so I understand very well.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So my question is this, can he do this, legally? I hate to give him bad advice, and him end up in a jackpot because he is a Texas resident with a Florida CHL.

Avoiding all of the other and just focusing on this question, yes it is legal for a Texas resident to have a Florida non-res permit only.

In fact, I keep my Florida non-resident permit up to date for this very reason.

Just at my last Texas CHL renewal the State was way behind in their paperwork and my Texas CHL had about a 30 day gap even though I submitted the renewal paperwork well before the expiration date.

No problem, my Florida permit was still valid and I continued on as if nothing happened.

There is nothing in Texas law that says one must have a resident permit. Nothing. And, the reciprocity agreement between Florida and Texas says that Texas will recognize Florida non-resident permits.

Col. Thomas A. Davis Jr., director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, signed the reciprocity
agreements with the State of Florida and the State of Tennessee through which their licensees can visit Texas with their concealed handguns.

Notice it doesn't say resident, it says simply licensee. The whole agreement is online somewhere if you google around for it.

 

[JAguirre]

ANGRYPISTOLS,

A pretrial diversion is not treated as a conviction in Texas.

Pretrial diversion is different than deferred adjudication, in pretrial diversion, when the party completes the stipulations, the charges are dismissed.

In deferred adjudication, upon completion by the party, the charges are not pursued by the court.

I am almost certain that a pretrial diversion will not be treated as a conviction by the DPS (Personal experience). I highly suggest having your son call the DPS and speak to a licensing technician. They will be able to clear up any ambiguity regarding the matter, but a pretrial diversion should not DQ your son, unless the court's disposition was different than a dismissal of the charges.

I hope this helps

 

[stickhauler]

"Deferred adjudication", at least to my experience, is a case where the charges are held by the prosecutor for a period of time, and if you don't screw up again during that time, the charges are torn up and thrown away. Indiana used to have a similar deal for traffic charges, if you got a ticket, you paid an additional amount (more than the usual penalty) and they held the ticket for like 90 days. If you didn't get another charge in that county in the time period, they tore it up and it was like it never really happened at all.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think most states won't honor a non-resident permit issued to one of its residents. If he can't get a Texas permit, the state probably won't honor the non-resident permit
This was done years ago in Michigan; they have since changed the law.

As CoRoMo noted, Texas will recognize a permit from another state such as Florida just fine. They have signed reciprocity agreements. Nothing in those agreements says anything about not recognizing non-resident permits. There isn't any law in Texas about which I am aware that says Texas will not recognize a non-resident permit from another state issued to a Texas resident. All that matters is that Texas recognizes the permit from the other state and the permitee should be good to go. The list of permits recognized by Texas is on the Texas DPS web site.

 

[piratelooking@40]

Nevada recognizes some out-of-state permits, but a NV resident must obtain a NV permit to carry legally. Be careful, look up the law yourself.

http://leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec3688