Christians Bearing Arms

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MarshallDodge - My apologies. (too quick on the keyboard and slow on the brain) MakAttack, I'll reread and study your post. I thought I had understood the essential of it. If not, then perhaps we are in agreement.

But this, from you; (with all respect my friend).....

As such, God has called certain members to be the instruments of Justice while other members of the body are instruments of Peace, Mercy, Love, Grace, Charity, etc... The Body has many parts, but one Head.

.....talks about character traits that we need to strive to develop as Christians, none at the exclusion or preemption of another. We should ALL be instruments of peace, love, grace, etc., and etc. Perhaps if you could give me a reference for the verse you site?

Sorry again about my error.
 
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From the Baptist Confession of Faith
9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.
( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)

Just cherry picking a line here and there can give a distorted view of the overall message.

When Christ says to Resist not Evil, you must look at the context and the people he addressed these words to as well as the society as it was.
The Romans would arrest anyone involved in an altercation regardless of the reasons and often as not put them to death, self defense or not regardless of whether actual harm had resulted from their actions.
The enemies of Christ were counting on this when they called the Romans when Christ drove the money changers from the Temple.
To avoid being set up the followers of Christ had to keep a low profile and avoid drawing the attention of the authorities at all cost.
The Zealots were at this time attacking Romans and Jews at every opportunity.
It was a choice between Christ's gentle persuasion and Barrabas' insurgent tactics.
Throughout the early history of the Church many attempts were made to paint Christians as traitors bent on undermining the Empire.
Finally even those Romans charged with persecuting the Followers of Christ had to admit that they were harmless as far as any threat to public safety was concerned.

Far too many simply skim through or speed read the Bible, without context the words mean little.
 
Hokkmike,

Although I find this interesting, I don't think this discussion pertains to Christians bearing arms. Thus I have sent you a PM.
 
What worries me are the ones who carry snakes.

And they want you to come to a service.

They _really_ want you to come to a service.

I'd carry a gun all right...

Yeah, so would I. Something about "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God"
 
Well, this is quite the long and ponderous thread. I am an Evangelical Christian. I am a Presbyterian, which means we use the Westminister Confession as a guide to Biblical interpretation - though as a guide it defends itself with scripture, it advises that the Bible is the only and ultimate source of our faith. I am Reformed in belief (rather than Arminian).

That said, as many others have pointed out, Christ was not a passive wimp. He got real violent with the money changers in the temple. His teachings cannot be condensed into a simple passiveness that others seem to think. His statements about casting the first stone, turning the cheek, etc, etc, etc are so often taken out of context or mis-interpreted (just as those who hate Christians like to condemn us by using Leviticus and Levitical laws which is, of course, absurd).

Ultimately, it is not a sin to defend your life. Those who love their lives which led to losing them meant they loved live more than Christ. It would be terrible to deny Christ to avoid going to a concentration camp. Yet it would not be a sin to defend your home against those who might seek to send you to a concentration camp.

Civil disobedience is something else, something that can cause some real deep discussions. We are called to obey the government as long as it is not in conflict with our faith. If, like Daniel, we are called to worship the king, then we must not do that. However, we must accept the punishment from the government for our disobedience (Daniel accepted the death penalty for it). In that vein, it may indeed be wrong to resist being taken to the concentration camp for your faith, but not a damning offense.

In any case, there is nothing at all wrong with owning firearms or using them to defend home, property, or others. Just as it is not wrong to eat, to drink wine, or to dance. If you make firearms your idol, if you are a glutton, a drunkard, or you do immoral things while you dance, then you are sinning.

The root cause of your action is the sin. This is fundamentally the entire message of Christ. Very few actions are themselves inherently sinful. Sex is not, vandalism need not be, even killing is not. Murder is sinful, as is screwing with what ever moves.

The point is, a Christian can defend his home or others with deadly force if need be. Revenge is sinful, and killing a man because he has wronged you would be sinful. Killing a man in your home who you know to be no longer a threat (say, standing with his arms in the air surrendering) would be murder, even if you get away with it in court. However, killing a man in your home with his arms raised is not sinful if you earnestly believe he is about to attack. The motive behind the act determines whether or not it is proper or sinful. This is not a license for legalism - there are no loop holes. The spirit of the law is indeed the law, and you cannot get around it with tricky maneuvering.

So, in the end, as an Evangelical Christian of the Reformed belief, I can say quite positively that I can carry firearms and use deadly force without sinning. I can also say that I am a sinner who most certainly has earned my one way ticket to damnation with my many sinful acts. I am no better than anyone else, worse than a great many. Yet I am saved, and while I in no way deserve it, grace is a wonderful thing. And if you are going to try to kill my wife and son, I will kill you first, so please don't try that because I frankly would rather not kill you.

Ash
 
An example of context.

Also from the Sermon on the Mount.
" if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile." (3)

(3) This commandment has been explained by some as an extension of the much-resented Roman law which required subjects to carry the spear and shield of a soldier for one mile whenever requested. The early church was anxious to avoid any appearance of being hostile to Rome, unlike the Jews who rebelled against the imperial government. "Going the second mile" has come to be a popular expression for making an extra effort.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/forgiveness.html
 
From Ash:

In any case, there is nothing at all wrong with owning firearms or using them to defend home, property, or others. Just as it is not wrong to eat, to drink wine, or to dance. If you make firearms your idol, if you are a glutton, a drunkard, or you do immoral things while you dance, then you are sinning.

All in all, an interesting, thought provoking, and, in my opinion, fairly accurate assessment. I think though, that the cited passage from Ash's comments are a bit of a stretch. I think the analogy of over eating, getting drunk, and dancing that leads to perverted thought or action cannot be compared to taking a life. There is too much of a critical difference in things being compared, i.e., apples and oranges, for the comparison to be valid.

Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you". He NEVER did anything to bring physical harm to another person that I can find. This includes overturning the tables of the money changers and sellers at the Temple. His primary character attribute was being meek and inoffensive, like it or not, while laying theologial landmines for the established religious authorities of the day. He spent a great deal of His time with folks from the other side of the tracks.

How does this apply to us and use of firearms in self defense? Well, I guess that is what this thread is all about and I must admit to be just as unsure as ever. Therefore, I will exercise the greatest caution and restraint before making that irreversible decision to let the bullet fly. I think that is what responsible gun ownership is about anyway.
 
I highly recommend the essay by C. S. Lewis titled "Why I Am Not A Pacifist," which is now a chapter in the book "The Weight of Glory."

"Why I Am Not A Pacifist" was originally a speech delivered by C. S. Lewis at Oxford during the Second World War, and it is as relevant to Christians today as it was sixty-five years ago. Reading this essay greatly helped me to solidify my own views on what is a very complicated issue within the Church.
 
And then there's Medal of Honor recipient, Pfc Desmond Doss.

I have consciously chosen to practice and carry should I ever be forced to defend myself, my family, and the innocent against the predator.

It's not something I take lightly. In fact, it weighs heavily on me.

When Christ fulfilled the New Covenant, He fulfilled the old Law and Covenant, and along with it, the "eye for an eye", literal "kill to fulfill God's will and law" way of living. The Messiah ushered in a "new" covenant between God and man. (That's why it's significant that He was not just another great prophet, philosopher, or figure in history.)

Christ was not just a "supreme example" in enduring ridicule, betrayal, physical harm and death, but conquered and reigned victorious over death itself so we could live (and die) without fear.

And he wasn't just the ultimate pacifist. He became the ultimate sacrifice which didn't just excuse our sin, but totally and completely removed its existence, and gained for us a life unburdened with worry, stress, concern, and fear of everything threatening both our physical and spiritual existence. (Yes, we are, indeed, still "human" and subject to those concerns, but we are not alone and hopeless in dealing with them.)

Martyrs for centuries have been documented facing torture and death with forgiveness, hope, and an otherwordly courage. Some Christians gathered their families and sang as wild beasts were turned loose on them in the Colesium while others, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, faced the SS gallows with peace and dignity (ironically for participating in a plot to kill Hitler). Some believers have knelt before their Nazi executioners quietly praying, filled with courage and forgiveness.

I pray for God's protection of the helpless and the innocent, and pray for His presence and wisdom should I ever face a "kill or be killed" situation.

Most important, though, I trust God's love, guidance, and forgiveness, and thank Him for giving me the choice to accept them.
 
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"His primary character attribute was being meek and inoffensive"

Oh, but he was offensive. He offended many over and over and over again. He regularly called out the Pharasees, calling them wicked and foolish, calls them hypocrites. Most importantly, when spreading the gospel, the disciples were to be open to all. But after his passing, they were to be willing to defend themselves. He did say, after referring to his command for them to take nothing on the road when they spread the word, "But now if you have a pruse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." The disciples response was that they had two swords. Christ's response was "That is enough."

He would not have told them to carry swords for their protection if they were indeed not to defend themselves. The coming persecution was to be bad, for not only would they be persecuted for being Christians, the Jews were soon to rebel and in 70AD all of Jerusalem would be wiped out, and any Christians about would be condemned as well. Even when Peter attacked a servant of the priests in defense of Christ, he is told to put the sword away not because of the violence, but because Jesus must be taken prisoner to fulfill his mission.

Christians are not to be braggards to vengeful, are not to take justice in their own hands, but certainly are allowed to defend themselves.

Ash
 
"Oh, but he was offensive. He offended many over and over and over again. He regularly called out the Pharasees, calling them wicked and foolish, calls them hypocrites.".....Ash

Yes, in a spiritual sense he was a stumbling block for many. He challenged coventional beliefs about religion and God. But in a physical sense he was not aggressive nor offensive.
 
And Sgt Alvin York

"And those machine guns were spitting fire and cutting down the undergrowth all around me something awful. And the Germans were yelling orders. You never heard such a racket in all of your life. I didn't have time to dodge behind a tree or dive into the brush... As soon as the machine guns opened fire on me, I began to exchange shots with them. There were over thirty of them in continuous action, and all I could do was touch the Germans off just as fast as I could. I was sharp shooting... All the time I kept yelling at them to come down. I didn't want to kill any more than I had to. But it was they or I. And I was giving them the best I had."

York was inducted into the United States Army and served in Company G, 328th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Infantry Division at Camp Gordon, Georgia. Discussion of the biblical stance on war with his company commander, Captain Edward Courtney Bullock Danforth (1894-1974) of Augusta, Georgia and his battalion commander, Major Gonzalo Edward Buxton (1880-1949) of Providence, Rhode Island, eventually convinced York that warfare could be justified.

York said to his division commander, General Duncan, in 1919: "A higher power than man power guided and watched over me and told me what to do."

Some justifications for War.
Nonetheless, the principle of self-defense can be extrapolated to anticipate probable acts of aggression, as well as in assisting others against an oppressive government or from another external threat (interventionism). Therefore, it is commonly held that aggressive war is only permissible if its purpose is to retaliate against a wrong already committed (e.g., to pursue and punish an aggressor), or to pre-empt an anticipated attack.
 
In the movie about Sgt York

He was a drinker who found religion, prior to AA their was
an Evangelical group that was having great success in giving alcoholics
a "spiritual cure".
I have no proof, but I think Alvin York may have been a member of the Oxford Group.
 
God Answered this:

He sent John Browning. I stood in his shop in Nauvoo IL, and he was truly a man inspired.

DSC05487.gif

DSC05480.gif
 
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tahktakaal,

Yes, that's an excellent summary of what I was taught and my beliefs. My killing or murdering anyone isn't a factor as far as getting into Heaven is concerned. It's simply a non-issue. Yet, I'm still very much wanting to improve my personal relationship with God and one of the ways I do this is by treating other human beings with as much respect and kindness as I can, given the limitations of my human fallabilities.

When I apply these thoughts to the ideas of self-defense and killing, I hope to do whatever I can do to protect my myself and others. I've written a paper on it and posted it here on THR which I've linked to several times so I won't do it again here, but it describes quite accurately how I view violence, self defense, and my life.

This statement caught my eye
Some justifications for War.
Quote:Nonetheless, the principle of self-defense can be extrapolated to anticipate probable acts of aggression, as well as in assisting others against an oppressive government or from another external threat (interventionism). Therefore, it is commonly held that aggressive war is only permissible if its purpose is to retaliate against a wrong already committed (e.g., to pursue and punish an aggressor), or to pre-empt an anticipated attack.

only because I believe it is a dangerous way of perceiving war and fighting in general and has been a common way for our government to justify our actions throughout the world in recent times which are not morally defensible in my mind. If the theory of pre-emptive strikes do not work on a personal level (you shoot your neighbor because you think he may do some damage to you) then they do not work on an international level either.
 
If the theory of pre-emptive strikes do not work on a personal level (you shoot your neighbor because you think he may do some damage to you) then they do not work on an international level either.

You mean shooting my neighbor when he grabs a knife and screams "I'm gonna kill you!"...

That's a pre-emptive attack as well.
 
The scholar Abraham D. Sofaer identifies four key elements for justification of preemption:
[1]The nature and magnitude of the threat involved
[2]The likelihood that the threat will be realized unless preemptive action is taken
[3]The availability and exhaustion of alternatives to using force; and
[4]Whether using preemptive force is consistent with the terms and purposes of the [law].

If we go by this definition, my example and your example, though perhaps covered under the same umbrella, are not really the same thing.
 
The problem is you gave no example. You simply made a statement opposed to pre-emptive strikes...
 
(The following rant was written rather quickly as I was pressed for time. There are probably errors and also certain ideas that will need further clarification. This is merely my view on the issue of self-defense based on My Life So Far, and like most issues that require considerable thought, is subject to change.)

Like Ash, I am an evangelical Christian holding to a reformed, covenant theology. I believe that covenant theology is the proper hermeneutic through which to interpret the Bible. For this reason, I think it is particularly important to emphasize the unity of the Old and New Testaments, even when talking about an issue like self-defense.

It is often pointed out by pacifists that based upon the example of Jesus, there can be no advocation of or participation in violence on the part of the Christian. While this argument is usually well-intended, I do not believe it is grounded in a good understanding of doctrine.

There are numerous examples within the Old Testament of God's people defending themselves with weapons. There are also countless commands in Leviticus and other books concerning the dispensation of justice. God was explicit that those who took life forfeited their own. He was not talking about executors of justice; He was talking about murderers. Murderers were to be killed, and to do so was not itself an act of murder, but rather a cleansing act. It atoned for the innocent blood that had already been spilled. We've often heard "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" as being foundational to Old Testament Law. God also taught the law of "blood for blood."

Yet when we get to the New Testament, we see Jesus advocating love, mercy, deference, personal sacrifice, even the laying down of our lives. This new teaching can almost seem at odds with the rigid system of justice taught in the Old Testament. To "fix" this problem, Christians often make the mistake of saying that the Old Testament Law was abolished with the coming of Jesus, but this is not true. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus specifically states that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. In other words, God's sense of justice did not change between Old Testament and New. He is still the same God, and His son Jesus became the only human to ever live up the Law's demand of absolute righteousness, which none of us could ever attain.

What many pacifists get hung up on is the fact that Jesus never exercised self-defense. Judas betrayed Him, the Pharisees mocked and tortured Him, Pilate had Him beaten and crucified, and yet at no point did Jesus demand that he be treated justly. Therefore, if we are to follow Jesus' example, we are never to stand up for ourselves, particularly if it requires violence, right?

Well, no, actually. Where many Christian pacifists go wrong is that they seem to forget that Jesus' mission was slightly different from the one he gave his followers in the Great Commission. The whole purpose of Jesus' incarnation and life was so that he could die, and thereby atone humanity's sin. It would not have made any sense for Jesus to take up the sword against his persecutors, because his mission on this planet required for him to die. Jesus was focused on appeasing the requirement of God's eternal justice and allaying His wrath, and this mission superceded any concern for Himself. As a Christian, my calling is not to physically die for mankind's sin, though it will often involve dying to myself. And while I can't rule out the possibility that I may someday have to physically die for my faith, I don't believe that refusing to defend myself from a violent mugger based on moral principle is the same thing as "dying for your faith."

As an example, imagine that the United States became a fascist or communist state that outlawed Christianity, and the consequence of faith was death. In its "mercy," however, the government gave each Christian the opportunity to recant the Lordship of Christ and go on their merry way. Imagine that a Christian who is given the opportunity to recant refuses to do so, affirming their status as one of the elect. And imagine that they are then brutally tortured and killed, but at no point do they deny their God. In this case, I do not believe that self-defense would be justified, even if the Christian in this example was able to do so, because there is no greater witness for the cause of the Gospel than to lay down your temporal life in affirmation of an eternal life. This kind of witness was one of the reasons that the early Church spread over the ancient world like a wildfire driven by divine wind. In the ancient arenas, pagans saw Christians who believed in a truth that was worth dying for. This was a radical and mysterious thing to people who for the most part had probably not found anything worth living for, much less something that was more important than their own life. The people who mocked Christians as they were torn apart by Lions were soon joining the ranks of God's people. The arenas of the Roman Empire possibly did as much to advance the Kingdom as all the teachers and preachers of the early Church.

As another example, we have a Christian who stops at the ATM to get some cash late in the evening. As he is walking back to his parked car, he is surrounded by members of a vicious local gang. Our Christian is an alert fellow, and he senses the predators before he sees them. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees one of the gang members reaching into the front of his pants for a gun. The Christian has his own firearm concealed on his person, and he has trained for exactly this type of situation (and has already chided himself for getting into it). Our protagonist knows that if he doesn't defend himself, he will almost certainly die. He also knows that if he does defend himself, some gang members will almost certainly die. While the Christian can't help but feel that it would be just to defend himself from a group of people intent on his murder, he also knows that "thou shalt not kill," and that Jesus was meek and sacrificial in everything he did. Could God forgive him for taking someone's life to preserve his own? In this moment of indecision, the Christian is gunned down. His money, gun, and car are stolen and he is left to die.

I believe that Christians are first and foremost called to be Christ's ambassadors, so as an ambassador, the first question I have to ask is: How did the Christian in the second example advance the cause of the Kingdom? Did the gang members come to a better understanding of God and the Christian life by this "meek" Christian's death? Are they more likely to become members of the Kingdom because our "sacrificial" Christian didn't defend himself? I really can't see how, mainly because the Christian wasn't murdered for his faith. In fact, the gang members probably had no idea their victim was a Christian. He was just a guy with money and a car. In one sense, the murder was "nothing personal," and because the gang members didn't personally know anything about their victim, his death does nothing to advance the cause of the Kingdom. In fact, this is one case where I believe the Christian had an opportunity to stand up in the face of evil but failed. For better or worse, he was in a situation to which he could have justly responded. Death would have been a proper consequence to the actions of gang members who are bent on terrorizing the innocent. While the loss of life is always unfortunate, I do not believe the taking of it would have been sin in this example. The protagonist was a citizen of both a temporal society and an eternal Kingdom that could not survive without the advocation and practice of justice. Unfortunately, our Christian didn't understand that mercy does not replace justice, but complements it. The result is that rather than advancing God's Kingdom, the Christian's loss of life only empowered some gang members with a car, an extra gun, and some money. Off they go to find their next victim, one who is probably less capable of defending themselves.

When it comes to the issue of self-defense, I believe that the most important question the Christian can ask themself is whether their action will advance or hinder God's Kingdom. If someone is intent on taking my life because of the faith that I espouse, then I will have to consider giving it to them, because my primary concern is for their soul and the witness of the Gospel. And how can their unbelief be anything but shaken in the presence of a belief so deeply held that we are willing to die for it?

But laying down my life to the stranger who terrorizes for the sake of material goods or lusts is not redemptive. Life—particularly life that is bent toward goodness—is worth more than anything material, and only the soul is worth more than life. If by laying down your life you have the opportunity to win souls by bearing witness to the Gospel, then by all means do it. For anything less, allow justice and conscience to be your guide.

Psalm 106:3
Blessed are they who maintain justice, who constantly do what is right.

Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.

Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her—but now murderers!

Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God
.
 
MakAttak said:
The problem is you gave no example. You simply made a statement opposed to pre-emptive strikes...


me said:
theory of pre-emptive strikes do not work on a personal level (you shoot your neighbor because you think he may do some damage to you) then they do not work on an international level either.

Not a very elaborate example, true.
 
Not a very elaborate example, true

Ah, I had thought no example existed. My Apologies. Still I don't quite see the difference- if he comes swinging a bat, I don't know the extent of the damage he intends.
 
Ah, I had thought no example existed. My Apologies. Still I don't quite see the difference- if he comes swinging a bat, I don't know the extent of the damage he intends.

I agree with you; I guess in my mind I saw a difference of immediacy of the aggressor (or presumed aggressor). My example was intending to show that you thought, maybe, that your neighbor would do some harm to you, so you shoot him before he can harm you as opposed to your example which I took to mean an emergent and immediate threat which you are forced to defend against. In your example, I personally wouldn't apply the term "pre-emptive strike" though it would be a valid definition; because of the means, intent (at least inferred intent), and ability to do you harm, I would call it "self-defense."

Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to point out that how we justify defending ourselves does matter and that the common idea of "pre-emptive strike" is, in my mind, a dangerous way to go.

Wordsmith,

Excellent post. You've definitely lived up to your screenname! :D
 
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