Church has armed guards at daycare

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Warbow, you should know by now that all Christians are evil fascists bent on taking over the government and imposing a theocracy on the US. Were it not for their own evil intentions, they wouldn't find themselves in a situation where they are systematically discriminated against. As soon as they admit this and renounce their evil ways, the Anti Christian Lawyer's Union (ACLU) will have to find something productive to do, like...I don't know...protecting civil liberties maybe. :rolleyes:

Geez, where have you been?
 
Has anybody else noticed how attacks on churches and synagogues seem to be on the rise all over the country, and nobody is making a big deal?

A synagogue within a few miles of my family has had its glass doors smashed several times in the last year. (You would think they would have gone with oak by now...) The police haven't done much about it. Looking at the general trend, makes you wonder :scrutiny:
 
Just to clarify a few things...

The "armed guards" consist of Deacons, Pastors, Greeters and misc members of the congregation. (All legal TN permit holders) No one is hired from the outside.

The "monthly training" consist of the above mentioned shooting at a range once a month or two and bi-weekly meetings of who stands where, what to question, who to question, how to handle this or handle that, etc...

The "extensive" camera system is very low budget and the congregation, who gives the tithes to the Church, agreed to spend the money. It wasn't all at once, but a couple cameras here, a couple there, a few more the next month, etc....

They were caught (or how ever you want to put it) when the fire marshall came by for regular inspection. The fire marshall is the one who made the call to the other authorities. The camp had been in progress for about 4 weeks before they were tattled on.


On a personal note: I, too, am afraid they will lose the battle. I see it as nothing more than Vacation Bible School that lasts longer than a week. If a summer program was available at my Church when I was that age, Mom would have had me in there in a heartbeat.
 
So what do we learn from this?

Sounds like this is all reasonable to me (apologies for not reading closely enough above) but you know they are going to lose . . . . . so is it better to have hid the weapons and cameras a little better?
 
I have to admit it sounds fishy, but consider things from the view of DHS. A church full of "armed guards" that run 24/7 around a daycare-that-isn't? Assuming it was your job to investigate things like that, I'm sure you would check it out as well.

The daycare argument is a bit off, but that shouldn't stop them from protecting their church. You could declare the place where the children are to be the daycare, and the remainder of the church to be a separate area, couldn't you?
 
Not knowing more about the case, were there any complaints? Why does the state have so much of an interest to control this facility? After any inspections has there been a safety\health violations?

I would agree that there is an element of a culture war at stake. Can the state in anyway guarantee that if they force this church to become a day-care center that the state will not impose upon them anything that will be against their religious practices? This is the heart of the argument it would seem. Outside of complaints, safety, or health issues they should be allowing this. I guess a question comes up, are there already religious day-car centers? I can't imagine there are not...

The firearm issue is exactly the kind of issue that has politics and state control agendas at hand. This has corrupted the conversation. It sounds like they are legally carrying to provide safety, and as long as the parents are notified of this, obviously they are also supportive of it if they participate. A facility should have a right to do this. Does anyone complain when they see armed guards at sporting events, banks, colleges, etc. etc.? Are the local police then going to stand guard all day at this facility? Where is the freedom and liberty we all have to choose. Doesn't sound like a law is broken here.

We all need to be sure we vote... and vote out idiots in our government.
 
Boy, was I glad to find out that the link for the Institute of Justice DIDN'T go to Janet Reno's site!

Esky
who thinks that parents have a right to protect their children even if the State doesn't think so, and that the RKBA means just what it says
 
When Hitler's SS came for the Jews, it sure was convenient for them that they had disarmed all of their intended victims first.

When Stalin murdered something like 20 million Jews, it was really convenient for him that they had all been disarmed first.

When the PLO attacks settlers in Gaza, they usually pick unarmed women and children.

The 9/11 hijackers could never have murdered 3,000 Americans if an armed passenger had stuck thier brains to the cabin ceiling.

The Jewish day care in LA was attacked because it was a "soft" target, as was the church in Texas.

Events such as Columbine could have been halted in progress by an armed faculty member.

Since D.C., New York City, The People's Republik of California, and Chicago have disarmend their citizenry, their violent crime rates have skyrocketed accordingly.

My point? Scumbags, be they governments, terrorists or mere criminals, ALWAYS prefer the unarmed victim. ALWAYS!

The whole purpose behind being armed is one of deterrence. If you (or a church) are well armed, the odds are overwhelming that whatever potential attacker you face will choose to leave you alone and hit someone else. Only in the worst of worst case scenarios is force actually employed. Under such circumstances, to do otherwise will result in one's own death.

In other words, this is a "no brainer" for anyone that actually has a brain. (which is why bureaucrats usually have a problem with it)
 
Since D.C., New York City, The People's Republik of California, and Chicago have disarmend their citizenry, their violent crime rates have skyrocketed accordingly.
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Could you provide your source for this? Specifically with respect to NYC, I'm not sure that's true. NYC has always been disarmed and after the crime wave of the Dinkin's administration, crime has gone down significantly . . . . . so my perception is this is just not the case.

And UK and Australia examples aside, it really hurts our argument because it shows that the citzenry can be unarmed and enjoy lower crime rates if law enforcement is effective . . . .
 
The church in Texas was in Ft Worth, and is called Wedgewood Baptist, not Prestonwood Baptist in Plano.

I read the article, and got a strange tingling feeling as well. Except mine came from the KNOWLEDGE that what I had just read was propaganda BS!, nothing close to journalism. This is evident by the inclusion of opinion statements made by the prosecution, instead of facts gathered by the reporter.

After hearing Darrin's report, the story came to life. I would carry my AR-15 on patrol if I got those kind of threats at my place of worship, and I STILL wouldn't call myself "heavily armed."

It's my opinion that the church has 24/7 guards, AND also holds a "camp" during the day. I don't think the guards are there JUST because the kids are there. On the other hand, those kids are far greater "treasures" than any video equipment, computers, or anything else a building might hold.

I am in FULL support of armed guards, and the organization of members of the church to fill those roles is just beautiful!
 
I don't think there's any real question whether the parishoners/leaders/employees are legally armed and justifiably so - quite clearly, they are.

The real issue we've been glossing over - or ignoring in an RKBA fit - is that yes, the state has the authority to regulate day care centers, period.

Where did the state get that authority? Two sources - the "police powers" and "general welfare" portions of the U.S. and state constitutions, which, whether you agree with it or not, has been deliberated by the "highest" and "most authoritative" minds in our country to include such state activities, so put that in your neo-constitutionalist wannabe expert pipes and smoke it, and secondly,
YOU, dear shooter, have GIVEN the state that authority by electing your legislators that pass the laws regarding day care centers.

Church/state separation is a red herring; don't go there - those kids are not participating in all-day, twelve-hour purely religious activities protected by the first amendment - they're playing, doing crafts, singing songs, eating breakfast/lunch/dinner, etc. This case is not going to be decided on first amendment grounds. It's going to be decided on whether the activities of this church fit the definition of "day care." It doesn't matter if the activities are being held on private property or church property: if it fits the definition, that's what it is. Period.

If not, the state authorities must go away.

If so, then comes the hard question: how is the RKBA squared with the laws governing day care facilities?

I know I haven't heard enough facts to make a decision, and I'm willing to bet nobody except darrin knows those facts. So please, don't go off on anti-statist rants unless you really know what you're talking about - I work for a state entity, and I know better what's in the minds of state authorities, and it's none of the tripe your spewing - they're thinking of their obligations under the laws passed by YOUR representatives that YOU elected, so back the f*** off, 'cause if the state authorities involved in this case have the same motives as the folks I know, they're gonna eat you alive in court if you try to spew forth that ignorant anti-state crap. And to stay OT with respect to guns, many state employees, not just LEO's, regularly participate in gun activities and can shoot circles around most of the tripe spewers on this thread, both literally and in the legal sense.

So there.:neener:

Rant off.
 
i've worked as a security guard at a church before. its no biggie. i'd like to know what they consider heavily armed? to ME heavily armed is atleast 1 long gun semi auto with multiple magazines and atleast 1 side arm of 9mm caliber or greater.
 
''What is so wrong with that area if they need armed guards? What is going to happen to the children? It's disturbing to think that they need to have armed guards. I do not know of any other child-care centers that have them.''
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Um... so where do the parents get their money back when their child is kidnapped from an unarmed daycare? How many children kidnapped is acceptable before the omnipotent state decides that it's ok to arm the security? I'd like to get a number from them.
 
Quote:"Could you provide your source for this? Specifically with respect to NYC, I'm not sure that's true. NYC has always been disarmed and after the crime wave of the Dinkin's administration, crime has gone down significantly . . . . . so my perception is this is just not the case."

NY City has NOT "always" been disarmed. It occurred as the result of The Sullivan Law, which (if memory serves) was in the 1920's. Right after it's enactment the crime rate DID significantly increase.

Try reading something along the lines of the FBI's Uniform Crime Report. It's full of actual statistical data, rather than opinions.
 
This thread really serves to drive home one salient point: Most people's opinions are emotionally driven. Their emotions are manipulated by a decidedly leftist news and entertainment industry. Most politiians, being essencially an immoral/amoral creature, simply sniff the wind and take the position that leads them to power. Others have a more sinister agenda - disarming the citizenry as the vehicle with which to control them.

That is the source of most all gun control legislation and sentiment.

The real issue is that most people are simply stupid - they think with their emotions rather than logic and statistical fact. The political class in this country, along with the afore mentioned media, exploits this to their own ends. That end, is ultimately control of the population. In other words, the sheeply have created the potential for their own enslavement.
 
Hey Gary,ex newyorker here

I don't have the stats but I agree with you.
I've had 2 guns stuck in my face during robberies,got stabbed twice and held up by knives at least 100 times in NY. Only reported one and (of course) the cops were no help.

Ive also seen muggers get the (**&^%) kicked out of them by neighborhoods and not get reported to the police either.
 
NY City has NOT "always" been disarmed. It occurred as the result of The Sullivan Law, which (if memory serves) was in the 1920's. Right after it's enactment the crime rate DID significantly increase.
Click to expand...

Don't see how stats from the 1920's (over 80 years ago) would be relevant.

And I think you are missing the point. Bloomberg announced yesterday the NYC has the lowest crime rate of the top 10 big cities in America. For all intents and purposes, NYC is disarmed.

Someone needs to do a Lott-like expose on the stats to show how CCW Laws like Florida's result in lower crime rates.

We can do that when we point to the UK or Australia - recent gun bans resulting in clear crime waves.

How do we argue with RINO Bloomberg when he holds up his stats? Is he showing some police-state alternative to the second amendment?

(and citing per capita stats from some county in Tennesse with 3 people and 20 cows isn't relevant either)

Gunsmith - I lived there the first 30 years of my life and was never held up. My father owned a retail electronics store in Brooklyn, also never held up. My brother was mugged once, but he went to High School in Downtown Brooklyn . . . . . I'd venture to say if you got held up that many times, you need to examine your habits . . . . .

Having said that I agree that many crimes are not reported in NYC.

Since this is thread hi-jacking to some extent, I created a separate thread to discuss: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83717
 
A Nashville church that's fighting to keep from registering its daily child ''camp'' as a state-licensed day-care center posts armed guards on the church grounds, which is raising alarms for state human services officials.
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Yea, we're about ten years overdue for another Waco eh? :barf:
 
Quote: "Don't see how stats from the 1920's (over 80 years ago) would be relevant."

We are talikng about a CONCEPT here. The concept being that when a people is disarmed, they fall victim to assault - be it by a facist government or a predatory criminal class. Just because New York experienced this 80 years ago does not make it irrelevant. It makes it history - the same history that one is doomed to repeat if they do not learn from it.

I also fail to see how this thread was "hijacked". Again, we are discussing a CONCEPT that is totally relevant to the topic.

Either Plato or Socrates ('sorry - college was a long time ago)said many centuries ago, "The small mind is concerned with personalities, the average mind with events. Only the superior mind concerns itself with concepts".
 
i support these people and their right to have armed guards.

in nashville especially. crime is bad all over. if the service is ran by member for members of the church, then i say its none of the states business. but if they take in children from non members that would be a commercial operation in my eye.

anyway the state will win, unless something drastic happens. heres the kicker for the next step in the battle. the is quoteing from an article at:



http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/04/05/51530767.shtml?Element_ID=51530767

"Child welfare officials yesterday launched a 60-day investigation into the welfare of the children at the church, said Carla Aaron, spokeswoman for DCS.

Aaron would not reveal the scope of the DCS investigation, although she said investigators will see whether any families at the church ever have had contact with DCS."

i would sya they done sik'd the social workers on the parents. thats cold ya know. who would stand with the church in the face of a social worker threatening to take your children?
 
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