Church has armed guards at daycare

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Is this a Case...

... of Malum Inse or Malum Prohibitum?

Is the law in question possibly making the church a law breaker, valid? Why is the church, a religious entity, being decidedly investigated by a governmental agency when the government deems it unpalatable to allow almost any type of Christian entry into any public operation they control?

While I am not overtly religious and do not wish any others religion stuffed down my throat, I find governmental intrusion into church matters completely unacceptable. The fact that no governmental agency will, in most cases, ever be held responsible for individual or particular group protection, I also find it very offensive that the same governmental agencies would strip me or others of the ability to protect myself or loved ones(which may include fellow parishioners). If the chuch has opened the operation to outside entry(non-parishioner children allowed entry to the program), then I might see the government's case as valid. Otherwise, stay out of the church's business in attempting to protect the parishioners' children during their stay on church property.

Perhaps a closer review of the original intent of the nations founders should be performed, on several of the original Articles.
 
I know this Church...

I work with the assistant pastor at this Church. It's a prodominately black congregation who has received many of racist threats over the years. These include: bodily harm to members, vandalism, "KKK type" mobs, etc...

Oh, and the neighborhood SUCKS! Do not let your car break down around there after dark.

Armed security has been in place for some time now. I have camped out many a nights with my pastor friend when threats were imminent. Two years ago, notes were left/mailed stating the Church would burn on Halloween. Needless to say, the congregation, (along with some friends), stayed up all night armed with pistols and shotguns.


Regarding their 'child care' operations, I wish them the best. That congregation is full of loving souls who are more than willing to help any person in need. They are even more willing to defend their passions.
 
Darrin clarified some questions I had about the Church, an neighborhood.

The way I look at it , the gummit has been meddlin with folks for way too long. Anti-gun persons, including celeberities, Corp heads, and various other "groups" play hearstrings to get attention and votes.

Eventually pass enough laws, and we all will be a felon.

I see nothing wrong if the "camp" is not under certain jurisdictions, certain laws don't /can't be applied. It is NOT like the gummit, politicians, celebrities don't SKEW stats, data, media to forward their agenda.

I have certain rights. I know the CCW laws of my state, I cannot CCW on College Campus. So...I don't park on College Campus.

Sometimes you have to Improvise, Adapt and Overcome rules to be responsible and true to self.



IMO
 
Meanwhile, Michelle Mowery Johnson, spokeswoman for the state Department of Human Services, questions the church's heavy security in an area of town that's reasonably safe.

''What is so wrong with that area if they need armed guards? What is going to happen to the children? It's disturbing to think that they need to have armed guards. I do not know of any other child-care centers that have them.''
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I'll tell you whats wrong lady; YOU ARE.

You and your nosey statist bovine scat ... you and your belief that you and "big brother" need to be in everyones business and forcing your belief system on their children.

They may feel they need armed guards because YOU and your JBTs (with initals like FBI, and BATF) have a history of killing unarmed people and burning down their homes because they have different belief systems then you.

:cuss:
 
Everyone knows the kids would be safer in the custody of the STATE!!

VE KNOW VAT'S GOOT FOR YOU UND IDS NOD GUNS.

God bless these folks for having the sense to keep their children safe.

Gunsmoke 45441
 
They should be able to do as they see fit . . . . however . . . .

Their security measures are definately on the curious side of things.

Heavily trained armed guards, security systems and cameras . . . . . in addition to those things costing money (which comes from where?) one would typically think there was a need to justify the expense.

So what's the need? WHy are they expecting trouble? Is this a Synogogue in the middle of KKK territory? Have there been incidents in the past? Is it a mainstream religon or more on the cult side of things where they'd need to be concerned?

Like I said, they should be able to do what they want, but my ranger sense is tingling . . . . .
 
Why would a church need 24 hr security? If they are located in the hood it would make some sense, but I am getting the impression they are out in the Suburbs.
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See the quote below:

what happened at Columbine and a protestant church in dallas tx. were terrorist acts even if they were not carried out by non americans.
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Not just a Protestant church, but also a Baptist church. I think it was Prestonwood Baptist Church.
A whacko walked into a church that was packed with teens having a concert and opened fire. Several were killed.

I used to attend a medium sized church that was located in a poor part of town. But, this a fairly small town.
We chose to stay there, because there was great need in that part of town.
One Sunday evening, about an hour before church, two teens were hanging out in front of the church, while their parents were inside at choir practice or something.
Two thugs drove up and beat both boys with a pipe. It seems one of them had on a jacket that was the wrong color. :confused: :uhoh: :fire:
After that, when my wife stayed after church for choir practice on Wednesdays, I hung out in the parking lot or sanctuary, with my CCW.

Trust me on this, with the current secularist agenda being pushed by the courts, attacks will begin to happen more often, and little will be done.

A study was done comparing the news coverage of the Prestonwood shooting, whith the Matthew Shepard killing, and the Texas man that was dragged behind a truck.
While all of these were awful crimes against humanity, the church shooting was the only one that was never called a "hate" crime in the media.
Even though the shooter was overheard grumbling about "Christians" as he was pulling the trigger.

I'm for the church on this one.
My kids are grown, but if I had small ones, I'd feel much safer if they were protected by armed guards.

What if some teachers at Columbine had been armed?

I believe it's the norm in Israel.
 
I am all for the security, but if the majority of the childrens Parents are not with their own child through the most of the day then it is day care plain and simple. This church does not know how to pick its fights. It will lose on the above grounds. I smell smoke. :D
 
This smells ...

Black church in a black neigborhood watching lots of kids for probably a very reasonable rate. Anonymous tipster contacts state about armed guards at a daycare ... Somebody is a greedy, busybody in that area smelling many new customers needing daycare facilties.

Personally, if the guards are outside the building would that still be breaking the law? It is a day care by definition ... and the church is going to lose that battle ... but maybe they can keep their armed guards if they stay outside the building.
 
I'm puzzled. Why does the gov make such a big fuss over the "lawfulness" of the churches "day-care" (if the guards are members of the congregation, the kids are those of congregation-members, it isn't a day care) and don't care about city and county governments clearly violating the law by allowing gay marriage?

Face it, we are in a culture war!
 
Highland Ranger posted.
...Their security measures are definately on the curious side of things.

Heavily trained armed guards, security systems and cameras . . . . . in addition to those things costing money (which comes from where?) one would typically think there was a need to justify the expense.

So what's the need? WHy are they expecting trouble? Is this a Synogogue in the middle of KKK territory? Have there been incidents in the past? Is it a mainstream religon or more on the cult side of things where they'd need to be concerned?

Like I said, they should be able to do what they want, but my ranger sense is tingling . . . . .
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Stuff like this is all in the reporting. You know the game...Don't you? If I read your post one of the things that bothers you is they are "Highly trained"? They have what sounds like people who can train them to be safe....Isn't that better then handing Barney a loaded gun and telling him to (be safe)? Notice nobody seemed to even KNOW they were armed until somoene reported it in. (Likely someone who they deamed UNFIT to work either as security or with kids) Heck I am on my church council we are looking at alarm systems/cameras and church is empty most of week. Money is problem but just looking at this last year. Lights stolen/damaged cost $1300. (exterior) Doors broken in with sledge hammer/pry bar 2X $500 plus stuff stolen inside$400 Then add in that door (rear emergency exit solid metal door they had to rip frame from brick wall) left open (heat loss) for IMO 3 days. We are trying to raise funds for $2500 alarm system Doubt it will happen so likely go with basic unit covers 4 doors and all ground floor windows with two motion sensors. We would much rather spend $$$ on handicap access/building repair/outreach..
Sounds to me they are working with layers. Alarms/cameras.personal.
 
Stuff like this is all in the reporting. You know the game...Don't you? If I read your post one of the things that bothers you is they are "Highly trained"?
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I agree - we don't know the whole story and the way it is presented does give one pause . . . .

The guards being highly trained doesn't bother me in the least - wish everyone who held a gun was highly trained - the comment was a financial one - highly trained (employee?) = more expenseive that rent-a-cop security guard.

Which leads me back to, that spending all that money on security is clearly out of the ordinary . . . . .

Now maybe if the rest of the story is that they had 10 vandalisms in as many weeks or whatever then this is explained.

If not then maybe other explanations might be that they are bucking for cult status or running a meth lab under the teeter totter in the school yard.

:D
 
Highland, Darrin posted this:

I work with the assistant pastor at this Church. It's a prodominately black congregation who has received many of racist threats over the years. These include: bodily harm to members, vandalism, "KKK type" mobs, etc...

Oh, and the neighborhood SUCKS! Do not let your car break down around there after dark.

Armed security has been in place for some time now. I have camped out many a nights with my pastor friend when threats were imminent. Two years ago, notes were left/mailed stating the Church would burn on Halloween. Needless to say, the congregation, (along with some friends), stayed up all night armed with pistols and shotguns.

Regarding their 'child care' operations, I wish them the best. That congregation is full of loving souls who are more than willing to help any person in need. They are even more willing to defend their passions.
Click to expand...
 
Remember the Jewish Day Care in CA that was shot up? The shooter chose that as a second target as his first had armed guards.

The idea that a government can decide that since a place is a religious institution guns can be banned is a violation of the Constitution. Gun bans if at all, have to be because of some clear and present danger due to the gun - not because of what some Deity is doing.
 
Maybe I am just suspicious, but something doesn't sounds right about this church. Maybe we have a THR member that goes there and could set me straight.
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Why is it any of the State's business. It's private property and it's church property.

Churches often have both considerable fund, and expensive equipment and expensive decorations.

I also think that it's blatantly unconstitutional for the government to prevent lawfully licensed and properly trained security personel from protecting children at daycare centers.

If they wnat to require that the daycare centers disclose that information to parent, I'm fine with that. However, you shouldn't be prevented from your constitutional right to keep and baer arms just because some gun control nut irrationally thinks that you'd never possibly need a gun to protect yourself or your children.
 
I am all for the security, but if the majority of the childrens Parents are not with their own child through the most of the day then it is day care plain and simple. This church does not know how to pick its fights. It will lose on the above grounds. I smell smoke.
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Call it what you like, however the state has no right to try and step in and regulate it.

How long before they step in and try and start dictating the ciriculum? How about dictating who they can hire, or require them to hire people who don't share their beliefs?

If the children are being given religious instruction throughout the day it sure sounds like it meets the definition of worship services to me, and churches have been holding such worship services long before the legal concept of daycare came about.

The government can't define something similar to their worship services, and then regulate it as something non-religious. This church is 100% correct to be standing up for their rights.
 
Granted I don't know anything about what is going on at that church, but I do seem to vaguely remember reading something one time... now what was it? Had something to do with the separation of church and state... Oh, yes the Constitution, maybe? Funny how, when it was written, the governments of other countries were using the church for their own means, so the church was basically becoming a political body. It was written to keep the government out of the church. Now, it's interpreted so that any principals that may be based on religion (Ten Commandments, Christian ethics) are not tolerated in the legislative or judicial systems, but the government is gaining freedom to control the churches. One step at a time, just as with the Second Ammendment.
 
My wife, the Director of Education at a religious school, hires armed off-duty LEO's to patrol in-and-around the religious school during school hours.

They are also there for special events in the evening and at various other times.

Never a problem.

(Guess it all depends upon who you hire!)
 
Wow. I'm surprised by some of the posts here which question the church's policy of armed guards. You may not realize it, but you sound just like the anti-CCW people who say, "Why do you need to carry a concealed firearm? That seems highly suspicious to me and I think you shouldn't." :uhoh:
 
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