Church Security Advice?

[spacemanspiff]

i've seen something similar. too lazy to dig up the thread about it though so i'll just retell the tale.

just a few moments before a commemmoration of the last supper was to begin (three years ago i think), with a near capacity crowd, one individual started cursing loudly and walking around the perimeter of the room (about 200+ people on hand) challenging everyone and no one, talking all kinds of weird nonsense. made the entire room go dead quiet. this individual made his way around to the front and then started down the middle, towards the row my family was in.
the chances of anyone else being armed as i was, slim to none. chances this individual was armed, pretty good. so i took position between him and my family (two nieces, two nephews, and my mother) with my hand on my gun (steyr m9 at that time), which was holstered and in my coat pocket.
i had known this guy way back when we were teenagers, he was kind of odd back then, but i never thought it to be anything but the pangs of growing up. he stopped when he got within 15 feet of me, and didnt make eye contact, then 5 other guys moved to positions around him. a friend of his family wrapped him up, and hustled him out of the building.

it seems this individual was not on his meds, or had too much, who knows. all we know is he was not in the right state of mind. his actions were unpredictable. he did pose a threat, though without seeing weapons in his hand, there would have been no cause for me to draw down.

 

[Kodiaz]

I occasionally go to church. I don't look like your average Christian (I have a long way to go). Any way I'm a mean looking guy the church has a couple of others we always nod at each other when we see each other in church (Hardcase radar once you have it you have it forever)One time I was going in 3 guys came up to me and put a little semi circle around me I saw them coming. When they got to me I had my knees bent my elbows in and my palms out(This stance to me means I'm not here to cause trouble but if you want me to give you some I have plenty)after a tense moment I looked all of them over on there way to me(no wolves in this group). I asked how it was going and whats going on and they said they wanted to wlecome me to the church but after reading this post I guess I set off someones radar.

BTW I always sit on the end of the pew near the back if something happens I don't want to be stuck between a dozen old ladies. My fellow hardcases are always on the end too.

 

[crucible]

I don't look like your average Christian (I have a long way to go).

Kod, your appearance and how it may be different than other "Christians" has nothing to do with your path, status or worth as one. (Nor does the fact that you think differently than a passive Ned Flanders about being a man and how that sometimes requires the use of force in the defense of innocents or loved ones....but that's another topic altogether.)

Offered FWIW.

C-

 

[patrol120]

I have done some research into this topic, as it interests me.

Let me say this. Having been in chirch my entire life, the ones who look like hardcases dont even attract my radar. I know why these guys are here. My Dad is one of them. If you saw him on the street, youd never think he was a Sunday School teacher, with his Goatee/Mustach astride his Bike. These are the kind of guys I want a church to be full of. Unfortunately, stereotypes are not relevant in a church seting.

You have to rely on your sixth sense. Mental Sickness is the biggest threat in a curch violence scenario. Many types of mental disorders fixateon religious idealogies. Whether the person was "wronged by the church", or the person thinks he IS Jesus, thats where the trouble is. Oftentimes these people simply dont act right, and dont look right. You can normally spot them right off the bat.

Vigilance is the key. Ushers, Nursery Workers, and the Audio/Visual guys are the best positions for this. In many churches, the A/V guys are in an elevated position. If the ushers are armed, great. If not, no big deal. Too many firearms in a target rich environment such as this may be worse than too few.

 

[Preacherman]

Sounds like you need your own in-house SWAT team... Sing, Worship And Tackle!



(Of course, when I'm at the altar, I'm the primary "designated marksman" for my congregation...)

 

[spacemanspiff]

you know preacherman, sometimes you hit homeruns. that one was outta the ballpark. and its about dang time! was getting tired of watching you strike out on the Pun-machine.

 

[adrock]

There is only one state law I have been able to find which restricts where you may carry in Massachusetts

My state-mandated-pistol-course (yawn) guy said there were something like six places, including bars, banks, airports (ticketing area, not secured), churches, and the usual schools/courthouses/federal property restrictions.

Can you cite the appropriate law?

Thanks!

 

[roo_ster]

What patrol120 describes jibes completely with what I have seen at my church*.

The hard looking fellows are not the problem, it is the folks who are off their rocker that will cause a commotion.

Our church employes most of the suggestions mentioned:
Off-duty uniformed police
Off-duty UC police
Greeter squads (though most greeters, up to recently, were not primed to keep on eye out)
Ushers

* Located downtown in a large metro area.

 

[FPrice]

adrock...

Can you cite the appropriate law?

Sure:

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/269-10.htm

Now, as far as the other places you mentioned. Airports and other Federal property come under Federal statutes as I mentioned. Bars and banks are not (AFAIK) statutorily non-carry zones, but most people would recommend against carrying in those places. If anyone tells you that you can't, ask them for a law reference. I would be interested in it myself.

 

[crofrog]

It defaintly seems like someone else suggested. Having various use of force options below leathal force makes sence. A Taser and some zip cuffs could go a long way into allowing you to control an EDP. Not the be all end all. But better than just pilling on.

 

[nfl1990]

If the person is mentally unstable and thinks the church wronged him, he is most likly going to attack the priest/minister, as they are the rep. of the church.
Perhaps a bullet resitant vest would be a good idea, it would be easaily hidden under his robes as would a CCW. Also simply raising the awareness of the Congregation would be of great use, if they know 'it' could happen they will be much more mentally prepared. If all you're concerned with are rowdy teens then having the men of the congregation, have canes/walking sticks would most likley be plenty.

 

[Scott F]

I was an elder in a “Mega” church and am now (much happier) and elder in a small (read tiny) church. Security is the same for both. Find the biggest level headed trustworthy person and the too of you sit in the back row. If anyone comes in that strike you as a potential trouble maker then go and sit on either side of him. This has worked on several occasions without the need for further action of any kind. If someone makes a scene at the entrance just remove them and call 911.

Second choice, move to somewhere where you can carry in Church. I always carry and when I was part of the big church there were thirty or more I knew I could count on and that does not include the dozen or more who carried in diaper bags. I am pretty sure I am the only one carrying in my little church but one out of thirty isn’t to bad.

 

[bogie]

Something tells me that y'all don't go to many strip clubs...

Usher #1 engages the person, and politely asks them to behave.

Ushers #2 and #3 take the person by the shoulders, and with Usher #1 leading the way, remove him from the premises via the front door. No problem.

 

[nfl1990]

Something tells me that y'all don't go to many strip clubs...

Could it be the regular church attendance that tipped you off?
I don't know about other churches but where I go that is frowned upon.

 

[det.pat]

i think that you have to be a bit more careful than that, in a church environment you have to be a bit more discerning in your initial assesment. look through the lens of your experience to determine if the subject is in fact a problem, or there other factors at work. after all you want to avoid any possible liability [which could be the real avenue of attack] and also utilize your supervisor's to also evaluate the person. I just feel that a church may want to carefully scale response to function.
pat

 

[308win]

The incidents that concern me the most are those that occur out of sight. We had an attempted arson at our church during a weekday night about two months ago. If the nutcase gets/takes another shot at an arson it may occur to him that Sunday at 11am might be a more target rich time.

CCW is prohibited in churches in Ohio so one is between a rock and a hard place. I always carry OC and my Kershaw but the only thing conclusive I know about knife fighting is that everyone involved gets cut - someone here said that I think.

We have an older congregation and in the event of a truely threatening situation I imagine we would need several EMTs with oxygen, defibs, etc. when it was over.

I watch new comers but I don't have authority nor do I feel responsible to confront anyone.

 

[bogie]

Okay, guys... explanation... Usher (or Party Host...) #1 is there to distract the mope while #2 and #3 affix themselves to the arms, and lift. Usher #1 then clears the way to the door, ensuring a smooth and fast trip to the pavement outside. Get 'em moving, and more importantly, keep 'em moving.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You _do not_ want to try this on a mope who either outweighs the ushers, or who is taller than the ushers (sigh... got that t-shirt once too - took four "party hosts..."), so think before you engage. You want 'em off balance, and helping you move 'em forward.

And quite frankly, after being exposed to a few folks from PTL and 700 Club back in the seventies, I gotta say that I generally preferred the folks at the strip club...

 

[JamisJockey]

And quite frankly, after being exposed to a few folks from PTL and 700 Club back in the seventies, I gotta say that I generally preferred the folks at the strip club...

ROFLMFAO

 

[Skyviking]

I've always carried in church. My mother frowned upon this "sacrilige", but I reminded her that Jesus instructed those who had no sword go out and buy one, and that one of His disciples cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant on the night He was betrayed. She remained unconvinced until an EDP came into her church and stabbed a couple of people severely. Although no one died, it was close, and she wished I had been there to stop it.

Stay at the end of a pew with a clear shot at the door, but far enough away that you are not likely to be one of the first people shot before you can react to the threat.

Regards,
Andy

 

[one-shot-one]

taking into account

that it is a small congration i think the best place to start would be to get the ushers and deacon/elders togather and define who is willing to be front line on this and who is willing to back them up, then work on some hand signals to employee (watch, move, engage, etc.).numbers will probablly overcome the situations that may arise short of armed intruder(s).
bogie/JamisJockey "they" are not a good representives for most of us.