Ciener Arrested for Fraud

[Bubbles]

Surprised it took this long.
Brevard County Sheriff's Office Raids Gun Conversion Manufacturer

First reported on BrevardTimes.com, the Brevard County Sheriff's Office raided a Cape Canaveral business located at 8700 Commerce Street at around 6:00 p.m. today.

Public records show that the business located at this address is that of Jonathan Arthur Ciener, Inc., a company that advertises gun conversion kits on www.22lrconversions.com.

On the Web, there appear to be several consumer complaints about www.22lrconversions.com.

 

[essayons21]

Interesting. I have a .22 conversion for my AR and a .22 1911 slide, both of Ciener manufacture. I was very nervous about buying them because of the issues I had seen reported and the apparent horrible customer service from Ciener. I bought them through MidwayUSA because of their good customer service and return policy, and fortunately both run well with good quality ammo. When they get dirty, or I use Remington bulk .22 I have issues, but when I use CCI ammo and keep them lubed they run flawlessly, so I am happy.

I'm curious to see the details of this case when they come out, especially since the alleged fraud was serious enough to warrant a police "raid" at his place of business.

 

[GCBurner]

I've got his conversion units for a 1911A1 and an AR-15, and they work very well. I hear he's not very good at customer relations, though, from the number of complaints I've heard about his attitude toward customers who've had problems, or need warranty service. No matter how good someone thinks their product is, pissing off your customers is a poor business practice, particularly in the Internet age, when word can go around the world in an instant, and get forwarded and repeated infinitely.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Made the mistake of ordering directly from Ciener once (1911 conversion). It only took ohhh.... 8 months or so for the order to show up. Never returned any of the numerous phone calls, emails, and faxes asking about the status of the order.

 

[dogrunner]

here's hopin': Good riddence to bad company! Fellas got the personality of a water moccasin and I sincerely hope he gets what he deserves.

 

[El Mariachi]

Just because you can open a business....doesn't mean you should stay in business.....

 

[Redlg155]

http://www.bbb.org/central-florida/business-reviews/guns-and-gunsmiths/jonathan-arthur-ciener-in-cape-canaveral-fl-33000568/complaints

The Better Business Bureau gave him a very favorable "F". It looks as though an overwhelming majority of the complaints involved delivery issues.

I find it hard to understrand. You have a good product that is carried by a number of well known suppliers as well as conducting internet sales, and yet there are problems. It would seem like it would make good business sense to hire more workers and a customer service rep. The two complaints I've heard are slow delivery and poor customer service.

 

[ants]

Poor reputation earned for poor customer service. That's for sure.
But they don't arrest you for bad customer service.

Most arrestable violations of the statute of fraud involve bad checks, theft of funds, misprepresentation of interest on a loan, billing credit cards but not shipping merchandise, and related financial shananigans.

So it wasn't arrest for having a bad personality.
We'll have to wait to see what he did to deserve arrest.

 

[19&41]

Maybe he will retire and sell the business to someone who is decent.

 

[mbopp]

Last I checked, he didn't accept credit cards. It's one less recourse P.O.'d customers have.

 

[Greybeard]

I am one that enough of the man's "customer service" attitude over a misfiring conversion for a Glock 17 that I would trash talk him at every opportunity. I wound up giving the unit away - with warning that it was a masterpiece of machine work to be such a $200 piece of scrap. The man seemed to think that at least one misfire out of every magazine was to be expected!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Greybeard,
I gave my .22 conversion mags away as well. I had 2 of Ciener's units, one that I bought used at a gun gun and one bought new. The gun show version worked longer than the brand new version, but both turned out to be garbage within 1000 rounds and I could not get Ciener to respond to emails and phone calls to return the new unit.

I am not losing any sleep over this guy getting busted. It is a shame there are folks in the firearms industry like this.

 

[brickeyee]

billing credit cards but not shipping merchandise

Or even billing a CC before the item is shipped, unless the transaction is clearly defined as an advance payment situation (like a custom order).

 

[parsimonious_instead]

Is this the same Ciener that makes silencers/suppressors?

 

[Carne Frio]

Yes........

 

[GCBurner]

From the actions of the Brevard County Sherriff's Office in actually raiding his business and taking him into custody, I'm wondering is maybe the Brevard County Sheriff is one of his unsatisfied customers?

 

[Brian D.]

Definitely going to keep watching this one.

 

[BullfrogKen]

MidwayUSA put all his products on closeout special. So, if you really, really want one . . . just sayin'.

 

[CapnMac]

On the Web, there appear to be several consumer complaints about

Sadly, there does not seem to be a single product that does not have complaints on the web.

Or lawsuits.

I do not believe there is a single tire--let alone tire maker--without a lawsuit listing on the web.

So, it's a bit of a surprise that so few 'gripe' pages exist for firearms.

 

[rondog]

Many, many years ago I had a catalog from J.A. Ciener where they were advertising conversions of nearly any bolt-action rifle into either full-length suppressors with entirely new barrels and modified stocks, or just screw-on suppressors onto the existing barrel. Always wondered how well those worked, anybody know?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Brownell's carried his BHP conversion units for a short time. I was tempted but leery of the customer service rep he had. Brownell's is very good about customer satisfaction. Maybe they got singed a few times and got tired of it.

Hopefully someone will pick up the business and run it right. Hopefully.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

that I bought used at a gun gun

Whats a gun gun?

Sadly, there does not seem to be a single product that does not have complaints on the web.

Or lawsuits.

I do not believe there is a single tire--let alone tire maker--without a lawsuit listing on the web.

So, it's a bit of a surprise that so few 'gripe' pages exist for firearms.

This was more than just the occasional lemon, this guy turned out alot of crap and had NO Customer Service.

 

[Bubba613]

He's had a reputation for being an arrogant orifice for many years. SOmeone with that kind of attitude frequently ends up crossing the line between legal and illegal as well.
While any company can have complaints about service (I'll bet someone has had a bad experinece with Dillon somewhere), Ciener was a unique case.

 

[Hk Dan]

His phone recording actually said--if you have questions about our product, check the FAQ page on our website. If it's not answered there, send us a check or money order for $5 and we'll make an appointment to call you.

I couldn't believe my ears! I was calling about availability on a G17 model (I had the G19 model), and vowed at that point never to send that arrogant prick another thin dime. I talked to him once about a problem I was having with my unit returning to battery. He seemed bored and said about 40 times "Look, just send it back and we'll have a look at it". I didn't want to do that and kept asking about solutions--it had to be something simple. No way. I wound up solving it myself.

I won't say he deserves this, but I will say that it doesn't break my heart.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sadly, there does not seem to be a single product that does not have complaints on the web.

Or lawsuits.

I do not believe there is a single tire--let alone tire maker--without a lawsuit listing on the web.

So, it's a bit of a surprise that so few 'gripe' pages exist for firearms.

While there may be gripes for any product, a hallmark of a good manufacturer is how well they deal with customer issues (inquires, complaints, concerns, defects, orders, returns). Ciener has apparently failed across the board in this regard.

In looking at posts about Ciener's bust on several forums, another pattern I am seeing is that unlike other gun manufacturers who somehow get crosswise with the law, Ciener does not appear to have anyone standing up for him and proclaiming his innocence or how he has been wrongfully charged. Unlike other gun folks, nobody is setting up a defense fund for Ciener either. Suffice it to say that Ciener's customers were his customers because he made a unique product, not because it was particularly good or because Ciener provided anything resembling good customer service.