CITIZEN'S ARREST BY CCWers - Close Call

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Oops. What a couple of boneheads, the first more than the second. I only carry to protect myself and my loved ones. The best policy I find today is simple..........don't get involved. I know that sounds selfish, but as another posted, no good deed goes unpunished. It's sad that it has to be this way. I guess we can thank mis-guided politicians and their poor decision making abilities. Maybe this will change one day, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Comanche180]

Not a close call

That was a bad call, by both guys. We don't need that kind of action. Actor #1 needs to go to the Wannabe Academy so he can get his methods right. What if the thief had not complied, would he have shot him for petty theft? Actor #2 is likely to get shot, jumping into a situation he has no knowledge of. Both of them make the rest of us look bad.

 

[Yo Mama]

Also you should never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to pull the trigger

Incorrect. In AZ we just passed a defensive display law, that if you do feel your in danger and pull your gun, the perp changes their minds and leaves, your not in trouble.

A gun, just seeing a gun can prevent 99 percent of situations.

 

[TexasRifleman]

ncorrect. In AZ we just passed a defensive display law, that if you do feel your in danger and pull your gun, the perp changes their minds and leaves, your not in trouble.

A gun, just seeing a gun can prevent 99 percent of situations.

Well, in fairness he said "unless you are PREPARED to pull the trigger".

That is right. You pull it you better be prepared to use it. Not that you HAVE to shoot, but once you draw a gun you have to be prepared to use it, otherwise it's just decoration.

 

[ezypikns]

I have a problem with this.

The second guy is fine.

When anyone comes upon a scene where somone is holding another person at gunpoint, how do you automatically know all the circimstances?

Even the Police have no idea who's who or what's what. What if the first fellow actually was a plainclothes Police officer? How do we know he's not?

If you're a peace officer it's your job to take care of the public, and sort out dangerous situations like this.

Please keep in mind that I am not saying that you should not draw and use your weapon under certain different circumstances.

There is a thread active now on THR concerning a citizen open carrying who probably saved several lives by using his weapon in the middle of an armed robbery. But he was as sure of the circumstances as he could be.

How can we be sure of our behavior under similar conditions?

Maybe we can't. But if you can use mental conditioning to imagine how you would react to someone threatening your life, maybe we can use the same techniques to imagine how we might confront a situation like this.

 

[MisterMike]

I hope that, in addition to debating this, we have all taken a lesson from this story--the authority to carry concealed does not make you a cop. Not only that, trying to act like a cop can get you prosecuted, injured, or killed.

I carry as a retired LEO in Illinois, a state that does not permit CCW, but which has provisions for the use of deadly force that generally reflect the law throughout the U.S. (note that I said "generally"--you need to know the laws where you live and carry). Our statutory law permits the use of deadly force only "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony." There is only a very narrow provision in our law for a civilian to use deadly force in effecting the arrest of a felon: "A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a peace officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another."

Again, I'm not suggesting that these standards apply anywhere other than Illinois, but they do approximate the law in a large number of states. The bottom line is that attempting to effect a citizen's arrest is always very tricky. Police officers generally have some protection from civil liability if they act reasonably and in good faith, but wrongly arrest someone. Most civilians do not enjoy that sort of immunity. Police officers generally are granted broad latitude in effecting an arrest, up to and including the use of deadly force. Most civilians can only employ deadly force if they are reasonably in fear of death or great bodily harm.

The bottom line? It's fine for a civilian to use a deadly weapon to defend himself or, in most cases, another. Once the bad guy's fleeing, it's much more tricky and could end badly for a civilian Dudley Do-Right.

 

[KSDeputy]

Exposing your firearm

Myself, and many of my fellow retired peace officers, discussed scenarios like the one above. We all came to the conclusion that we would make excellent witnesses when local law enforcement arrived. Although catching the bad guy is in our blood, we no longer have arrest powers. We can make citizen's arrests, but should do so only in felony situations. We leave ourselves wide open to a civil lawsuit, unless we are very careful. Unless someone's life is in danger, our firearm should remain concealed. I would suggest the same guidelines for concealed carry permit holders, especially if they do not have the level of training that we do. Believe me, I know how difficult it is to not do something when you witness a crime happening. If no one's life is in danger, just be an excellent observer. Make mental notes of descriptions, then pass the information along to local law enforcement when they arrive. It's being smart and protecting yourself.

 

[jon_in_wv]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[DawgsFan_07]

I think the first guy was stupid, but not the second one. If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

 

[ezypikns]

How do you know the one holding the gun isn't an LEO?

If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

If you're in a situation (middle of an armed robbery, say), you may know who the bad guy(s) are. When you walk (or drive) up to a scene which you just described, you have absolutely no idea what's going on.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I think it would be easy to pick out a regular citizen from an off duty LEO. Their posture, their stance, the way they are acting and the commands they give could all be easy tell-tell signs.

 

[rbernie]

I think it would be easy to pick out a regular citizen from an off duty LEO. Their posture, their stance, the way they are acting and the commands they give could all be easy tell-tell signs.

Bullfeathers.

More importantly - does posture and stance (with no other context) seem like a solid rationale to justify the use of deadly force? Not to me.

 

[jon_in_wv]

If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

I can't believe some people still have this rationale!! Exercising you right to carry a concealed weapon should mean a little more responsible attitude that this. This is getting frustrating.

 

[heviarti]

Well, having seen the news report, the first guy was looking like a nozzle. hawaiian shirt, disorganized, grabasstic.. Didn't see the second guy. That being said, I'd have done *something*. In Idaho, CCW isn't just about firearms. I also carry an ASP. Sometimes I carry a knife and a sap as well. What can I say? I have enemies.

It's not BS that you can spot a cop. They even have an event at Defcon where you do just that. It's called 'Spot the Fed'. Cops have a bearing that's easily spotted. Placed deep cover agents... not so much.

then again I've been in some strange situations. I think I'd find something to do to stop someone from stealing, but the gun would likely not be my first choice. It seems to me that the sooner you let someone around you be victimized, the sooner you'll be victimized. Stop it now, or stop it later. Criminals are by definition recedivistic. Recedivism is curbed by beatings, or alternately having a pistol jammed in their face by someone they thought was a victim. With some of the trouble coming out of Nampa/Caldwell it's nice to remind people that lots of people are carrying.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It's not BS that you can spot a cop. They even have an event at Defcon where you do just that. It's called 'Spot the Fed'. Cops have a bearing that's easily spotted. Placed deep cover agents... not so much

Tell that to this cop that shot another cop. You sure you can always tell huh?

Want to rethink that?

29May09
An off-duty policeman was killed by a fellow officer last night in a horrifying case of mistaken identity.
Now New York police have launched a race investigation after Omar J Edwards, 25, died last night as he chased someone he found rummaging through his car.
New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said Edwards, who was a married father of two, had just gotten off work at about 10.30pm when he spotted a man going through his vehicle.

Edwards - who was black - called emergency services and began chasing the man.
The young father pulled his gun as he ran after the criminal - but did not fire it.
He was spotted by other officers in an unmarked car, who, thinking that Edwards was the criminal, immediately gave pursuit.
The officers yelled: ' Police! Stop! Drop it!' - and Edwards turned towards them, the gun still in his hand.
Commissioner Kelly said one of the officers - who is white - leapt from the car and fired six shots, hitting Edwards in the arm and chest.
Edwards was not wearing a bulletproof vest as he was off-duty. He died at 11.21pm at a hospital in Harlem.
Police only realised he was one of their own when they opened his shirt to find a Police Academy T-shirt underneath. His officer's shield was then found in his pocket.

 

[ezypikns]

We almost all have cell phones.

Maybe call 911 FIRST.

 

[withdrawn34]

Great. Thanks to these fools - they've really helped our cause a ton with this incident

/sarcasm

 

[Pweller]

I think the best policy, as 2075 Rami stated, is don't get involved. Sounds bad, but I've found that nobody really wants your help unless they specifically ask for it. This is particularly true in situations that you know nothing about.

From my CCW class (in AZ, not that it really matters) it became clear to me that carrying can be a bigger liability than an advantage. There are so many legal issues surrounding CCW that can't really be covered in a one day classroom setting. I've had my ccw for about 2 years and haven't carried once. Before I would start carrying regularly, I would seriously study all of the laws involved and previous cases to know exactly what was within the scope of the law (again, going far beyond what was taught at the CCW class). There is a very narrow legal window when it is OK to draw a weapon. Stealing isn't one of them.

 

[heviarti]

Most police haven't been identifying police as enemies since childhood. The police officer is NOT here to help you, he is NOT your friend.

 

[bigdog21]

n NC there is no such thing as a citizens arrest.The CC instructor stressed to me heavily that there is a legel gray area concerning pulling your weapon where third party defense is concerned.There are too many things open to interpretation in a court of law.
If I took the time to weigh the legal implications before I acted the situation would be over.Clearly this guy did'nt think before he acted.Shouting police when you are not one is a big no-no.

Um citizens arrest does exist in statute in S.C.

SECTION 17-13-10. Circumstances where any person may arrest a felon or thief.

Upon (a) view of a felony committed, (b) certain information that a felony has been committed or (c) view of a larceny committed, any person may arrest the felon or thief and take him to a judge or magistrate, to be dealt with according to law.

SECTION 17-13-20. Additional circumstances where citizens may arrest; means to be used.

A citizen may arrest a person in the nighttime by efficient means as the darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, even if the life of the person should be taken, when the person:

(a) has committed a felony;

(b) has entered a dwelling house without express or implied permission;

(c) has broken or is breaking into an outhouse with a view to plunder;

(d) has in his possession stolen property; or

(e) being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed.

 

[DCR]

Just remember...laws regarding "resisting/obstructing an arrest" don't apply in citizen arrests. In ID, where this incident took place, it is now a felony to resist with violence against a police officer, but the worst a BG will face against a citizen is battery, if anything at all.

Unless the crime's being perpetrated against you or your family, best off being a good witness and leaving the rest to the pro's.

 

[IdahoLT1]

totally forgot about this case. the first guy was arrested.


UPDATE:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/872330.html

Boise man charged with a felony for impersonating a police officer

Boise Police Department early Thursday morning arrested a man for impersonating a police officer and holding a gun on a robbery suspect.

Paul Brookhouse, 52, of Boise is charged with a felony from a July 17th incident in Downtown Boise.

Police say the suspect chased a suspect on foot and produced a handgun as he intervened in a theft. Police say Brookhouse said he was Boise Police Officer as he held the theft suspect at gunpoint.

 

[Erik M]

My instructor stressed that we should only draw when our life or the life of a s/o was in immediate danger. Then the 3 hour long video from the state attourney general basiclly told us all the laws that prohibit us from using deadly force for anything other than to protect that life from immediate deadly force would land us in jail. playing cop is serious business, and illegal.