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City or Country for safety if SHTF???

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Topgun, Mar 9, 2003.

?

Which location would you prefer to defend?

  1. City

    10 vote(s)
    9.8%
  2. Country

    92 vote(s)
    90.2%
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  1. Topgun

    Topgun member

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    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12698

    Made me think of this subject. Conventional wisdom says the country is better.

    Tactically, I'm not so sure.

    Country would dictate an isolated location that would be easier to penetrate with no interference from a close by ally.
    All food would have to have been stored well in advance and kept edible.

    The country would probably be the first place marauders would head.

    City on the other hand would allow close support from neighbors and a ready supply of "draftees" (carefully chosen) who are of like mind. They would most likely already be close and not have to fight to get to the country location. (Not talking about an already planned commune or compound like Waco)

    Defense of city would have narrower fields of fire rather than approach from 360 degrees.

    Food if not stored would be available for looting (we are not discussing a situation of any sort of order here)

    Extra ammo would be "findable" in city by well planned raids. Also medical supplies and facilities.

    Both situations assume that an intelligent, ruthless, able survivor would be leading your group no matter which area you choose.

    Opinions?
     
  2. Cal4D4

    Cal4D4 Member

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    I think it all depends on what scenario SHTF means to you. Societal breakdown in a city means a large concentration of people are gonna get real hungry real quick when the supply lines go down. In the country, anything edible will be harvested as populations search outward for food. In the country a well equipped enemy can bring conventional military tactics down on big areas without much concern. No military force relishes "house to house" combat. The history of people is a history of safety in numbers. All that said, a smallish band of survivors in a rural setting can slip unnoticed where a larger group in a city would have target value. If you want to be a post apocalyptic leader, stay urban. Lots of followers and places/people to raid are everywhere. If you think you can go it alone on your rural skills, country with alot of natural cover. You may not even need to post a guard if conditions are harsh enough.
     
  3. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    The wife's dad has a cabin about 40 minutes off a major highway about half way between Indianapolis and the Illinois border. About 30 minutes away from our new house using exclusively back country roads. 3,400 sq ft on a small mountain shared with one other individual he's known for about 25 years. Orchard, large stocked pond, deer are seen almost every day when you go lookin' for 'em. Electricity and gas generator. I have a few guns down there and a couple thousand rounds of ammo on the off chance mine were confiscated or I was unable to bring mine.

    I'd much rather take my chances out there than the west side of Indy. ;)
     
  4. Jamie B

    Jamie B Member

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    Country is safer!

    That's why we live there!

    We have a well stocked pantry, generator, stocked gasoline.
    There is abundant wildlife, and since the population density is much less than the city, there is a lower probability that we would be hit first (higher city population density would result in a higher kill ratio for invaders, so cities would be hit first).

    Everyone in my area has guns, dogs, or both!

    We also are not dependent upon city water and sewage since we all have our own individual wells and septic systems.

    This is the reason that we left the ccity 22 years ago.

    I can also walk out my back door and shoot anytime that I want to!

    Jamie
     
  5. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    If by "SHTF", you mean "TEOTWAWKI", bear in mind that the average city has enough food stored for maybe a week after the trucks stop rolling. Them grocery store shelves will get mighty empty, mighty fast.

    Also, why do you think that "country" means "lone farm", and not "small town", "rural farming community", et cetera? A setting like that makes it easier to coordinate things with your neighbours, since you know them all. I know what kind of emergency rifles my neighbours use; heck we sometimes go in on ammo deals together.
     
  6. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I think the country will be the better place all around. Then again, I live in rural farm lands. Tacticaly, the city is a nightmare. What your saying is easy to defend also allows someone to get very close without detection. It also provides them with plenty of cover to move on you with. Here in the country, at least open farm land anyway, they would have to cover open ground to reach you, and against people who have been raised with guns and hunting and for the most part can reasonably shoot. They also have the advantage of knowing the lay of the land and how to use it. They also have the luxury of doing nothing and just fading away if they so choose. Believe it or dont, but there are quite a few people out here, though farther apart, but you really arent alone. Most know each other on adjoining properties and most have at some point hunted together or on each others lands, so we know whats up and where. They also will help each other when needed. One thing I notice a lot from people from the city is, they have no idea just how much open land is really out here. They are so accustomed to looking just off the road and not beyond. Out here the open land and wood lots go on and on, not just to the first tree row. The other thing is how city people react to the countryside. A few years back we had some city boys who thought it would be easy pickings to rob some of the places out here. When they encountered resistance and tried to run, they quickly got stuck in the big ditches we have on the edge of the roads here. When they bailed and ran, they stayed close to the road instead of running for the woods across the fields. They were easily rounded up. If they had hit those woods and stayed tight, they probably would have been a lot harder to find, if at all if they kept their heads. Then again, they were city boys. :) If your dealing with "maruders" from the city, who were born and rasied there, I dont think you will have to much of a problem dealing with them. The roads here are funnel points and can be controled pretty easily. If you dont know what your doing off the road, especially at the wrong time of year, even 4 wheel drive wont really help, so getting off the road and moving really isnt that easy. One person who knows the land with a good rifle can hold off all but determined people who really want him, and even then, why would you try and get them all when one shot will slow or stop them while you slip off and do it again. Once sucked off the road and into the woods and area you know, they are at the disadvantage. Hell, they were at the disadvantage when they left the city. :) Even if you were forced from your home or strong point, they now have to deal with it and at some point have to try to leave, or at least come out on the porch.(hillbillies will know what I mean here :D) It is your local area and they are still at a disadvantage as they are now trapped and you probably have help coming. Yea boy, I think I'll just stay out here with the rest of the "dumb hillbillies", you can take care of the citys. :D
     
  7. SodaPop

    SodaPop member

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    During the last major snow storm we had two weeks ago, all of the store shelves were empty in 48hrs in my area. I think we got about 24inches of snow and they didn't get deliveries for 48hrs.

    Pretty scary.......
     
  8. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    Face it, this will be a come-as-you-are party. If you are in the city you're stuck there so make the best of it. There are more neighbors, but are they friend or foe? I live in suburbia these days and I hardly know my neighbors. I'd be starting from scratch putting any kind of mutual protection group together here, and we're right next door. It can work, but I suspect that many will choose to join others on the interstate parking lots going nowhere.

    In the country, folks have many of those day-to-day issues already sorted out 'cause they deal with it while hunting, fishing, working around the farms. But it's really a question of where you are when the bubble goes up. Do the best you can.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2003
  9. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I am sorry, maybe I missed something here. Is this for the giant spiders SHTF, aliens from Mars SHTF (aka When Mars Attacks SHTF), Red Dawn SHTF, NBC attack SHTF, drunken Mardi Gras naked people SHTF, natural disaster SHTF, home intruder SHTF, invasion of US by conventional troops SHTF, PETA SHTF, or the My Mother-In-Law is Coming SHTF?

    While there is some crossover in materials, methods, and locations, each definitely requires some specialty considerations. For example, the 'Whan Mars Attacks' SHTF will require a stockpile of Slim Whitman albums and the ability to broadcast them quite loudly. The same albums can be used as part of psychological warfare against the drunken Mardi Gras naked people as well, but is completely useless against giant spiders and natural disasters.
     
  10. Jamie B

    Jamie B Member

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    Excellent points, AK!

    You are right - even though I don't all of my neighbors, we all know what vehicles that each other drive. We can easily spot 'outsiders', and we look out for each other. When someone runs through a neighbor's fence, we call the land owner and let them know.

    It is a strange code to explain to outsiders - while we do not play cards weekly, I know who lives where, what they drive, where their property lines are, and when strange cars are lurking in the area. (The FBI was staking out a guy several years ago, who was stealing construction heavy equipment, and lived several miles away. When the goverment boobs were sitting 'undercover' and parked at an intersection, we all saw them, and knew who they were simply 'cause they were very obvious 'non-locals').

    We are also very aware of weather patterns, and the direction of arriving storms. Since our vision range is miles, as opposed to a city block thaat is lined with tall buildings, we are able to see weather before it arrives. Our kids can walk outside at night, when it is pitch-black, and see stars, planets, and the Milky Way. This is very surprising to the city people that we know since their nights are clouded (pardon the pun) with lights and noise.

    I till gardens for my neighbors, at no charge of course, because I will receive help from them in other areas. The 6' tiller I bought for my tractor has won me many friends, and I enjoy the things that I learn from others. I have learned to greatly respect farmers simply for their wide expanse of knowledge.

    One of the local farmers, who had become a great friend, seemed to be a real 'stand-offish' guy when I first met him years ago. I found out that he has a low tolerance for fools, and does not say much until he gets to know and trust you, which takes a LONG time. It is very hard to earn acceptance, but once you do, you're in for life! Wouldn't have it any other way!

    We find ourselves telling the kids when we go to town to 'be careful since we are in the city'. 'Nuff said, eh??

    Jamie
     
  11. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

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    Cities and city dwellers are too dependent on the govt planned and approved infrastructure. When that breaks down, there will three major concerns. Food, water, and sanitation. Food would probably disappear within a week. Water and sanitation have a symbiotic relationship in urban areas and one usually dosen't work without the other. It is very likely in most urban areas there won't be any alternative sources of clean water for washing, drinking, or flushing the turlet. This would create a sanitation and public health nightmare.
    A lesser, but still important concern is power and fuel sources. Electricity runs virtually everything in a modern home to include heating and cooking. Like the food, fuel reserves would probably be gone in a matter of days. If the breakdown occurs in the winter months especially in northern, western, midwest and northeast regions, there will be another set of problems. How to keep everything including yourself from freezing. People who have prepard for natural disasters by stockpiling fuel and keeping a generator on hand will be able to stave off the effects depending on how long their fuel supplies last, how often and how long it's run and if they have the means of defending their supplies from raiders and desperate, but unprepared people just trying to survive.
    Those living in rural areas are going to fare many times better and more comfortably than their urban counterparts because just by virtue of living outside the city limits they are already living a more self-sufficient lifestyle. Most already have in place alternative food, fuel, sanitation, water, and power sources in place and use them daily as part of their lifestyles.
    Tactically speaking, a lone home in a rural area would be harder to defend and would require having LP-OPs placed in different vantage points to act as an early warning. And creativty and imagination can be used to defend property by booby traps punji pits and other things that would slow down a group of raiders. However as Sun Tzu said, deception is a part of warfare. Translated into Murphy's Law of combat, "Try to look unimportant, the bad guys may be low on ammo". Stockpile lots of supplies and don't appear to be living very well in hard times. In a rural area avoiding contact should be the foremost strategy. And any raids should be conducted as far away from hearth and home as possible to draw the bad guys away from your area to make them think the problem is elsewhere. In an urban area the strategy should be fast, brutal, demoralizing, guerrilla warefare.
     
  12. 45R

    45R Member

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    Topgun-
    IF SHTF we all meet at YSA. Gather Food supplies then head out to the country. The city is too populated. I'd rather take my chances out in the boonies then worry about social break down in the city. Less people to worry about and I can find my own sources of food. (Fish, birds, pigs ...so forth)

    :)

    45R
     
  13. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Member

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    I'm getting in my CRV and driving to Runt & Oleg's!
     
  14. pax

    pax Member

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    China has at least twice offered to bomb L.A.

    Haven't heard them offering to bomb East Podunk yet.

    pax

    Country folks can survive... -- Hank Williams jr.
     
  15. Topgun

    Topgun member

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    I may have used wrong comparison.

    Guess I meant "community" rather than "city."

    Wasn't thinking of high density urban inner-city but rather a populated civil area as opposed to the lone house in the boonies.
     
  16. Croyance

    Croyance Member

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    In the city, you will run out of water if you do not have your own well. In some suburbs, people use well water, but they still need electricity to get the water. Without water, you will be dead in a week.
    Where are you finding these supplies of ammunition? The gun and sports stores will be looted early on. They have a lot of supplies useful for survival beyond guns. Don't be fooled by all those bad post apocalypse movies, there will be no stores sitting full of guns, ammo, and camping gear.
    How are you training new recruits without a lot of ammo?
    An individual location may be theoretically more defensable in an urban area, but I guarentee you will be defending it. Sniping and skirmishes will whittle away at your guards and resources.
    The countryside has places to forage.
    Who cans and preserves more food (long term food supplies laid away) people in the city of country?
    With the absence of gas and electricity, pack animals are a great thing to have. Where is that in the city?
    Even an hours drive from a city is isolated enough. That is a long walk for most people.
    The defensable thing is taken care of by good neighbors and dogs.
     
  17. telewinz

    telewinz Member

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    I would stay in a very SMALL city, 7000 or so people. Much less or much more and it becomes a burden. Safety in numbers and resources.
     
  18. BIGR

    BIGR Member

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    The country will be the best place to be. I know the land and the mountains. I know where I can find food and water. I have places to hide where a billy goat can only go. Its just like that song you heard on the radio ... a country boy can survive.. Thank God I'M a country boy. :)
     
  19. andy

    andy Member

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    The most likely type of disaster that will happen around here in the Seattle area would be an earthquake. We had a good shake up two years ago. The first thing that happened is that everyone left their job and tried to make their way home across damaged highways and bridges. All the roads were choked with traffic and you could forget about getting anywhere. I did not see roving bands of looters, guns fights, or desperate people trying to steal food and water from each other. People were amazingly patient and polite. I suspect they would act the same in any other type of disaster. When this happens again, and geologists say it will, it could be a lot worse. My plan, if I am at home and my apt. building does not come down on my head, is to sit tight. I have enough food for a couple of weeks and there is a lake nearby if I get desperate for water. If I am at work, which is about four miles from where I live, I will walk home and stay there. I don't know what people are like where you live but here we don't kill each other for food. This city is as safe a place as you are going to find.
     
  20. biere

    biere Member

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    Ah city life.

    Where sewers must flow to remove waste.
    Where city water or bottled water are the only drinking water around, unless you catch rain which might be polluted. Or you filter puddle water.
    Where food has to be trucked in to support a population so dense there is no way for them to support themselves.
    Where garbage trucks must roll in order to reduce that build of waste.
    Where so many rely on electric base board heat and all the other things that cease to work when there is no electric.
    Where so many live in places without yards so they could not even plant a tiny garden of their own if they wanted too.
    Where buildings and streets absorb the summer heat all day and release it at night creating their own mini-climate.
    Where any local wildlife would have how many people after it? Same goes for the rare park with trees that would have how many people thinking firewood when they looked at it?

    If someone wants to live in a city, they are welcome too.

    I prefer my land, I love low population density. For my 9 acres, the population is one, and I consider that a tad crowded at times.
     
  21. Safety First

    Safety First Member

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    country or city?

    I live 10 miles from a small town and 35 miles from a fairly large town and I live so far back in the woods I have to pipe in sun-shine (just kidding about sunshine) But there is only one way in and way out and a large dog with extremely good hearing to give me early warning. I keep a good supply of food,water,wood for heating and fair amount of ammo. I have rifles,shotguns and plenty of turkey,deer,etc..I feel much more secure here than the city I moved from 9 years ago..Anything can happen to us whether in the city or country,but at least I FEEL safer here whether I am or not. I just hope and pray that the illegals who have made it into the country to harm us are caught before they can cause wide spread harm to the population..so I say pray but prepare for the worst and then do the best you can, that is all anyone can do..
     
  22. Jack19

    Jack19 Member

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    If you're in the city, my advice is to accumulate enough provisions, of every sort, so as to allow you to BOIP (Bug Out In Place) for at least a few days.

    If you think that you're going to suddenly make a mad dash for the "country" when TSHTF, I guarantee you you will have trouble doing so, both on the journey (due to the stressed competitive types you will meet along the way) and when you get where it is you're going (as those "country" dwellers will be concerned with their own survival, and a whole lot less about the hordes flooding from the cities.)

    If you haven't moved to the country yet, or bought property there and gotten to know your neighbors, or, at minimum, have a destination at the end of your journey that does not involve using the resources of someone you will displace, your welcome will be an unpleasant one.
     
  23. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

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    When the fecal material hits the rotary oscillator, I would hope to be in the city. Suburbs, anyway. More buildings to hide behind, more crap to be made defensible. Harder to see what you're shooting at, of course, but I assume we're talking about defending yourself against the hordes of scum that would seek to take what you've earned, rather than hunting. I don't intend to stay in the city after I retire, but then I won't have much to do except buy guns and practice all day with them and teach any of my neighbors the same.:D The country is less defensible, but occurences of this type are far more rare. Bottom line is you can't escape evil. The brigands of this world will find you if they've a mind to. The best defense is to be prepared for any possibility, paranoid as that may sound.
     
  24. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    You've got to be kidding. More buildings? Well, OK, if that sort of thing is important to you. I can build a building if I need one. I live in the middle of miles and miles of corn, beans, livestock and wild game. There's a creek about a mile thataway (points north) and a whole lot of firewood. I know my neighbors and know I can trust most of them. Most of the ones I can't trust are notorious around here and have been for years.

    Marauders will head for the country? Well, no offense, but if every "marauder" in Macoupin County stays here and half the "marauders" in St. Louis come thisaway, St. Louis will still have us beat.

    As pointed out above, in a city, the S does not have to hit the F to end life as you know it. The sewers stop working, the main arteries in and out get destroyed or blocked, the trucks or trains or ships stop running, electricity goes out in the winter, etc etc etc.
     
  25. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Most large cities of my experience are already war zones.
     
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