Civilian gunfights involving a reload.

[Zaydok Allen]

Well, pterodactyls are extinct so I'd say that's impossible. Is it pterodactyl-attack-impossible that you'll ever need to reload in a gunfight?

The more important question is what cartridge would be best for defending from a pterodactyl? 9mm, .40, or .45. Hmmm, would a revolver be better or more reliable than a semiauto?.........

Oh! That's right. The OP was asking about examples of civilian reloads. Nevermind.

 

[RustyShackelford]

3x3x3 Rule.....

I go by what I call the 3x3x3 Rule.
That is, that most armed citizen/CCW license holder lethal force incidents are:
Approx 3 rounds fired total(by both sides), at about 3 feet, in about 3 seconds.

The 3x3x3 Rule does not mean you don't need spare magazines or speed loaders/strips. Extra ammunition is important but the chances of needing it are low.

 

[TestPilot]

So, according to Mr. Claude Werner, Director of Firearms Training LLC. it is about 0.5%, I guess.

However, that kind of number is meaningless.

First of all, there is a difference between a "shooting incident" and a "gun fight."

Also, it does not mention the ammo capacity of the gun and how many shots were fired.

Someone carrying a 17 around magazine pistol would less likley need a reload than someone carrying a 7~8 shot pistol.

 

[mnhntr]

I cannot remember the name but there was an apartment manager who was doing work in an apartment and was approached by two men who were asking him questions. He went into the apartment were he was followed and attacked causing a shootout. He reloaded his Glock once during. I am sorry I do not remember anymore of the details but all parties were shot only he survived his wounds.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

FWIW it does seem that a lot of trained guys wind up dumping the mag. Several AARs I've read recount the officer firing every round in their Glock at or about the perp. One incident I recall reading about involved an off duty officer who was the trainer for his dept; he shot it out with an armed robber in a McDonald's. He was carrying a Glock (forget the model) and fired ten rounds COM into the perp. I also don't recall whether that was all the gun held (probably not if it was a G19 but it might have been if it was a baby G).

I've seen videos of sims/FoF training where the participants fired to slide lock routinely.

I won't pretend to have a perfect answer! But I do think the question is an interesting one. To echo another poster a spare mag is way smaller than a spare tire. If I foresaw the possibility of needing a gun badly enough to go to all trouble of buying one, picking out a gunbelt and holster, then actually strapping it on...well, it's not a great stretch that an extra mag might also be necessary. Maybe I'm paranoid but I don't see why anyone would go the extra 5270 feet to carry a gun but not the extra 10 feet to carry a spare mag.

 

[tipoc]

I go by what I call the 3x3x3 Rule.

Well it's not really a "rule", or a law. People tend to obey rules and I'm not sure anyone feels obligated to obey this one. It's more a statistic the FBI drew from analyzing it's reports on "gunfights" in which leos were involved.

It also wasn't 3 feet IIRC, it was 3 yards. I'm also not certain that they didn't toss in some plain shootings in there which may not have qualified as "gunfights". The point is most such incidents are close up and over quick.

Whether pistol or revolver learning to reload, clear a malfunction, cleanly draw a weapon from cover, shoot a gun at 25 yards, etc. are part of developing gun handling skills and are done independent of how often a person might need them.

You develop skills cuz you like to. Not based on the statistical probability of maybe needing them.

No one, unfortunately, keeps reliable, statistics on shootings and gunfights other than in the broadest strokes or in local cases. Neither the government nor cops are interested in doing so.

On the mag thing, always carry an extra one, you may need it and not because of the near zero likelihood of needing it in a gun fight.

tipoc

 

[ugaarguy]

Someone posted here on THR long ago, in regards to why he carried a gun, "It's not the odds it's the stakes". I think the same holds true for carrying a reload.

 

[Malamute]

^ ^ ^ Agree.

Another consideration. Yes, police have some different issues and concerns, but I wouldnt rule out the need for a reload because you arent a police officer. Crooks don't become crooks by only having issues with police, its generally because they had issues with ordinary people. Same bad guys. Why would one assume that a shooting incident with that person would require no reload as a non law enforcement person, when it may as an officer?

 

[Jaymo]

Unless you're talking about military police, cops ARE civilians.

 

[MCgunner]

Hmm, well, I never sat around thinking of "plain shootings' and what consists of "a real gun fight". Hmm, where does self defense fit in here?

 

[Malamute]

I think that can vary or be defined with each situation.

 

[tipoc]

Even if there were reliable figures (which there are not) that told you how many people in a given year got into gun fights and had to reload what would that mean to you?

Nothing. It would tell you nothing about you. It would offer not a clue to what you should do.

This is because your situation is not a statistic. It's you in a gunfight. Or more probable you in a situation where you need more bullets. Better to have than not.

The need for a reload has little to do with gunfights. More likely it's just a situation where more bullets is a very handy thing.

tipoc

 

[Sunray]

"...many incidents when Police Officers have had to reload..." Caused from a lack of training, skill or practice.
I doubt anybody keeps or even collects such data. Not many news reports of non-police use of firearms unless it's some maniac shooting up a school or whatever.

 

[Schwing]

I don't ever foresee needing a reload and I usually carry a 5 shot revolver. Having said that, there was another thread similar to this about 2 months ago. Someone made a similar argument about how little space a reload takes. For giggles, I threw a reload in my pocket next to my wallet and it was such a small imposition that it has become part of my routine.

 

[tipoc]

Hmm, well, I never sat around thinking of "plain shootings' and what consists of "a real gun fight". Hmm, where does self defense fit in here?

Wherever you can stuff it in, I suppose. This is in reference to the 3x3x3 deal from the FBI. They never stipulated self defense incidents. They never stipulated "gunfights" where two or more people exchanged gunfire from a shooting. The latter being a case of one person shooting another and no exchange of gun fire.

So take it from there.

tipoc

 

[JohnBiltz]

My personal opinion is a CCW holder is going to live and die with what is in the gun when it starts because it is going to be close in distance. If its not close it probably is not going to happen and close means it is going to be over fast or you will be overcome by events. The exception to this is an active shooter situation, which is very rare. Saying that, I normally carry a spare magazine. If I have survived a three man mugging, I don't know about you but I am going to want to reload when it is over. I'm going to want to do that even more if I'm on my back when it is over.

 

[mcappys]

My mean old wife carries 2 stripper and one speed loader for her 357 Ruger LCR.
We try to pratice weekly 100 rounds at least, reloading is part of this.
She is slow, but faster than me, I only care one stripper, if I can't get it in 10 rounds I figure this old fat target is toast, unless the old woman is there, then I can save my ammo.

 

[MCgunner]

don't ever foresee needing a reload and I usually carry a 5 shot revolver. Having said that, there was another thread similar to this about 2 months ago. Someone made a similar argument about how little space a reload takes. For giggles, I threw a reload in my pocket next to my wallet and it was such a small imposition that it has become part of my routine.

Well, speedloaders are more pain to me than just carrying my .38 UL as a back up. I do carry one Bianchi speed strip in a belt pouch with my cell phone, though. Speed strips are easier to tote than autochucker magazines.

 

[BSA1]

IMHO the best point for carrying extra ammo is to reload your Roscoe after the initial incident is over. In some communities there is the possibility of things reigniting if family members or fellow bangers get there before the Police.

It has been well documented, I personally know of one case, that LEO's emptying their guns when they only thought they fired two or three rounds.

That said do a risk assessment and arm yourself according. For me a five shot snubbie covers my needs pretty well. However I recently purchased a SIG P239 for EDC when my permit comes through. With 9 rounds I have significantly upgraded my firepower in one compact package.

 

[benEzra]

As I recall, from the NYPD SOP-9 data, at least one in ten gunfights required more than 7 rounds to stop the threat, and the average number of rounds fired by the police per confrontation was 10.3. This would be the number of rounds required to stop the threat, rather than the number fired per officer, which is probably more relevant for non-LE CCW. Arguably the NYPD may be worse shots on average than the average non-LE CCW holder nationwide, but I am not sure where there might be non-anecdotal data to compare it to.

 

[TomJ]

Just like the odds of having to use your gun are remote, the odds of having to reload are remote as well. That being said, we don't choose the circumstances of an attack. The BG's do that. We don't know if or when we'll be assaulted, by how many assailants, whether they're on drugs or mentally ill and won't go down as easily as someone who's sober, etc. Carrying a spare magazine or two costs me nothing, but in the remote chance that I'd ever have to use my gun and have to reload, not having them can cost me everything.

 

[Combat Engineer]

Recall, some years back, was shooting with a couple of local cops at my club. (S-E Michigan)

Says I: "At what distance do your gunfights occur?"

Says one Cop: " Most of our business happens at 3 to 7 feet."

Feet not yards.

Says I: "So at that range we are talking head shots?"

Says the other Cop: "No, center mass only, you'd be surprised, under stress, how many misses there are."

I asked the same gunfight distance question of a Police Lieutenant.

Police Lieutenant said: "According to FBI statistics, most gunfights occur at 3 to 8 feet."

Again, feet not yards.

That's means that a criminal assault will most likely occur at an 'in my face distance,' which means a sudden ambush.

Saw a CCTV video of a Dallas woman who was leaving work, getting off an elevator and crossing a lobby. Out of nowhere, a perp appears, grabs her purse with one hand, and with the other hand pushes a pistol up to her head and shoots her. All happened in about 2 seconds. She died. He was later caught.

I don't worry about reloads, only about getting that first shot off accurately and quickly.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Again, I am sure most non-LEOs could not do reloads even if they wanted to do so because they don't carry spare ammo or mags.

Any time a non-LEO ran out of ammo, they needed spare ammo, maybe not to stop the threat, but so that they were no without firepower in case there was additional threat.

I just don't recall folks ever complaining about having too much ammo for a gun fight.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #31, FBI stats.....

By the 3x3x3 Rule, I refer to armed citizens & CCW license holders not FBI agents or US sworn LE officers.

Also I agree that many private citizen lethal force events are 2/3 feet too not yards.
I'm not sure of many stick-up robbers or muggers who attack starting at 50 yards away.
It would be great if more dumb crooks did that.

I try to shoot a few times at CQB(close quarter battle) distances when I shoot at the range, just so the real need wouldn't be a big surprise or shock.
I saw a recent store robbery video on www.break.com where a young pregnant sales clerk was sucker punched by a thug(6'04" to 6'06"). The young girl let the "customer" get way to close before he lunged at her.

 

[tipoc]

Just on the 3x3x3 rule, or average. First if someone can find the original FBI or DoD report that says that it would be helpful.

Second, it is more likely 3 yards than 3 feet. On average more gunfights occur at 3 yards and under than at 3 feet and under.

The 3x3x3 deal is that most, on average, gunfights occur involve 3 shots or less, take 3 seconds or less, and are at 3 yards or less.

Folks really think it's at 3 feet or less? 3 feet is where you can lean out and touch someone. At that distance or closer a knife is a much better weapon than a gun. The average of that would mean that 1/3 of "civilian gunfights" would involve people at tango distance, hugging. You think that's the case?

I don't think that there is an official source, reliable statistics, for that 3x3x3 view, either yards or feet. I suspect a gunwriter or trainer thought it up and popularized it.

Here's one of the FBI reports it's supposed to be based on. The annual Officer Killed Summaries available at the FBIs website...

http://www.fbi.gov/fbi-search#outpu...loniouslykilled.html&q=officer+killed+summary

I also include here two articles discussing the reports...

"How many bullets do you need in your home defense handgun"

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ets-do-you-need-in-your-home-defense-handgun/

and "What do FBI statistics really say about gunfights?"

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/what-fbi-statistics-really-say-about-gunfights/

The other source for much information is the analysis Claude Werner did based on 5 years of articles from the "Armed Citizen" column of American Rifleman. In that report he says...

The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.

Just past 3 feet or further. A link to that article...

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2012/03/self-defense-findings.html

Both sources have their flaws. One deals with police shootings and only those where officers died, the other only shootings where the defenders were successful and excludes those that are domestic disputes and others. The American Rifleman column routinely excludes a number of shooting incidents.

None of this tells you anything about carrying a reload. But it is useful to have some facts. You oughta carry a reload but it's got little to do with gunfights.

tipoc