is gunfight reloading a necessary skill?

[GRB]

Joejojoba111,

Speed strip is a plastic strip or band that holds revolver ammo together one after the other. Picture a flat plastic strip just a bit wider than the base of a .38 round, it is about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch thick and somewhat longer than six shell casings standing in a row. The plastic strip has six small circular areas into which you place the base of each round. So when you reload, the rounds are all in a row and you can consecutively push each (or two at a time) into the chambers. Goes pretty quick, but not as quick as a speed loader.

 

[c_yeager]

c_yeager what are speed strips?

Glen got the answere. I would add that they are sufficiently slow that if you have to reload with one while under fire you are in a world of hurt. All they are really good for is keeping six rounds of ammo conveniently oriented in one big mass in your pocket. Its a lot easier to handle than loose ammo, and with practice a LITTLE faster. The only real advantage to the speedstrip is that they are significantly easier to carry concealed than a speedloader, aside from that they are inferior in every imaginable way to a speedloader or magazine.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm going to go against the grain and say it's far from vital to practice reloading drills. There's nothing wrong with doing them, but IMHO far more attention should be paid to assessing the factual and legal aspects of a given situation and making sure you can draw, aim and fire as quickly as possible when the time comes. If you run out of ammo, your next step in the drill should be to run away and get a long gun, or just run away. Staying in a prolonged fight with a handgun is not a good plan at all. Your handgun should be used for a few seconds, after which you should be either getting ready for your legal defense or behind cover and getting as far away as possible.

Running away is the most underutilized and under-practiced skill in personal defense. Reloading the most over-practiced.

 

[c_yeager]

If you run out of ammo, your next step in the drill should be to run away and get a long gun, or just run away.

I agree with most of what you said, but for me running away is the FIRST step in my drill, the gun only comes out when that isnt an option.

 

[fastbolt]

Just as having a handgun is no guarantee that you'll be able to accurately hit your target, having spare ammunition is no guarantee that you'll be able to effectively either load it, or use it. Proper training & frequent safe practice can help with reloading skills, just as with shooting skills.

I also agree that as with most of the actual, hands-on training and practice involving defensive handguns, the laws governing the lawful use of deadly force, and the carrying of concealed handguns, are of primary interest and concern. Kind of like worrying about high-speed driving before someone has even taken the time to learn the rules of the road, qualified for a DL and obtained vehicle insurance ...

Same thing for realizing that avoidance is often a highly underrated awareness skill.

First things first.

Sadly enough, though, I've seen far too many folks ... both L/E and CCW ... that had a hard enough time loading their weapons on the range when not under any stress other than preparing to engage in some course of fire. There are folks that find reloading a pistol within 5 seconds to be a highly stressful, difficult task ... and that's without the paper targets shooting back, obviously.

As far as non-L/E folks not ever needing to reload a defensive weapon in an actual deadly force situation? Well, if I'm remembering correctly, I think I remember a home-invasion type situation several years ago where a victim's revolver ran empty, and he was killed. I can think of another situation several years ago where an off-duty cop was the victim of an attempted armed robbery, and he ended up firing something like 8 rounds from his .45 pistol, at close range, making several hits, before the threat was stopped.

You just never know ...

Magazines can certainly be involved in some malfunctions. I take a lot of care in maintaining mine ... keeping my carry magazines clean & dry, and inspecting the condition of the bodies, followers, butt plates, inserts/catches, and springs ... as well as each round of carry ammunition that I load in them.

While I decided a long time ago that it's easier to replace magazine springs on some periodic usage/time basis before I experience any problems resulting from a weakened/worn spring, I've had a couple of worn follower (plastic) issues develop which caused malfunctions on the range, and which immediately caught my attention. Now everything gets examined fairly frequently. Naturally, different types of magazines can have some different needs due to construction, design, materials ,etc., etc. I pay attention, though ...

I generally carry one or two 12-round spare magazines on duty in my plainclothes assignment. My soon-to be new .45 ACP service pistol is going to be issued with 5 magazines, however, since they're 8-round magazines, and we decided that it's simply easier to issue them and have our folks carry them for uniform duty, than for them to feel 'under-equipped'. I'll still only carry 1-2 spare magazines in my plainclothes assignment (and off duty), but I'll have 5 with me for uniform situations in the future.

When I carry my 642-1 J-frame, while there have been a couple of instances where I've only carried a single speed strip, I usually carry two of them as my preferred minimum ... and more often either 5 speedloaders or a couple of speedloaders and a couple of speed strips, depending on my dress and planned activities. 5-shot speedloaders take up so little space in lightweight jacket pockets, and speed strips easily slip into a rear or front pants pocket and carry lightly, without adding much visible 'bulk' to a pocket.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a 'personal preference' response, but as you can probably tell from my response ... and as a L/E firearms trainer & CCW instructor ... you can see that I've thought about the necessity of being able to properly, efficiently & quickly reload in a defensive situation.

It doesn't have to be fancy or esoteric ... it just has to work when needed ... and be useful under the various circumstances that I can envision and anticipate.

I may not ever really need these skills ... and that's fine. Doesn't mean I practice them any less. Same thing with my martial arts interest. I don't consider it to have been a waste of my time for 34 years.

I'd avoid some of the unnecessarily complicated and convoluted reloading practices that break reloading down into multiple 15-step procedures that require you know how to dance the Watusi and look uber-tactical at the same time, though. Simplicity and practicality aren't necessarily bad attributes when things get fast & fuzzy in the real world. That's also the worst time to discover that Mr Murphy has become bored, and wants to What-If? us ...

 

[GRB]

Cosmoline,

Running away if all well and fine if you can do it and remain safe but, it is no reason not to reload our weapon as necessary. If you cannot run away or otherwise avoid a fight and, if you do not know how to reload you may be in for a big hurt or a too soon death. As a matter of fact, as you are evading and avoiding you should have a fully loaded weapon or be tactically reloading.

Running, evading or avoiding is always an option if there is a safe route of escape, especially one that affords plenty of cover. Not knowing how to tactically reload should never be an option. Doing it with an empty gun would be negligent if there was any chance of reloading it. So if you choose to go out with only the rounds already loaded into your firearm and then find yourself cornered and unable to run or, if they run faster than you and are intent on getting you, I hope you can throw your empty gun with great and accurate effect and I hope it works like a boomerang if there is more than one bad guy chasing you.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Joejojoba111]

Thanks, I'd never seen those before. I was thinking, "Does he mean those flat star-shaped clips? Or is he talking about big speed-loaders?" I think it would be cool if there was an easy way to carry them.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm gonna agree with Cosmoline on this one. There are many many more important strategies to practice to survive a gun fight than reloading.
There are no skills that are truly a waste to practice. Shooting at 50 yards or more, shooting strong hand or weak hand only, racking the slide with one hand, point shooting blindfolded, shooting from the hip at extreme close quarters, etc etc. are all great skills to have. And I admire anyone who can do them well. But let's face it, practice time and ammo money is limited so people need to make priotiies. And I would say that drawing quickly from the holster and shooting one shot accurately well tops the list of skills needed. If people have more time and want to add more skills, more power to them.
But the rule I heard is, if you need to reload during a gunfight then you are either missing a lot or brought the wrong weapon.

 

[goalie]

Well, you don't really need ANY skills to survive gunfights that you are reading about on the internet. Sure, the average gunfight has just a few shots at just a few feet.

I am not willing to bet my life on being average.

That said, IMO one should learn how to effectively deploy the weapon that they carry, and the ammo that fits into it, before worrying about filling it up again.

 

[GRB]

And I would say that drawing quickly from the holster and shooting one shot accurately well tops the list of skills needed.

One shot, one stop heh, sounds like Fantasy Island! If that is what you think is the most important thing in tactical training for a street situation I pity you should you ever require a tactical reload under extreme pressure. Sure there are more important things than reloading, but reloading skills are one of the most critical aspects of tactical firearms training.

 

[GRB]

That said, IMO one should learn how to effectively deploy the weapon that they carry, and the ammo that fits into it, before worrying about filling it up again.

Aah, the magic word "BEFORE". You got the order right. Learn how to engage the target with your weapon, learn how to fire the weapon with accuracy and reasonable speed, then learn how to reload it tactically. Filling it up again, as you call it, it a critical part of knowing how to use the weapon.

 

[goalie]

Aah, the magic word "BEFORE".

Oh yeah. I finally took a high round-count shooting course last summer. 2,000 rounds in two days, with six rounds in a magazine. We did an emergency slide-lock reload at the end of each string of fire before re-holstering as well as reloads during the actual shooting exercises in order to get used to not stopping with an empty gun (paperweight) if you still had ammo on your belt.

I know how to fill'er up now.

 

[Old Guy]

Reloading?

The act of "Re-loading" means? putting more rounds in your hand gun when it is empty, yes?

Carry a pistol that negates a need to reload after but a few rounds are fired (personal option, a Glock 19, 16 rounds) and at least one 17 round magazine (Glock 17 magazine)

Only train for reality, not shoot a few and reload, and when I have trained LE personnel, the first lesson is? How to run away!! And not straight away either.

And to conclude, never fire one round, unless a careful single shot to the eye socket at 7 yds, or less (hostage situation)
If you have a need, and the right to fire at an other human, you can shoot till the threat is no longer a threat.

Just my 2 cents worth. Keep Safe.

 

[The Rabbi]

One shot, one stop heh, sounds like Fantasy Island! If that is what you think is the most important thing in tactical training for a street situation I pity you should you ever require a tactical reload under extreme pressure.

Glenn Bartley, surely you can read better than that. I did not say that was the only important skill. Nor did I say I believe in the 1 shot 1 stop theory. I did say that getting the first shot off quickly and accurately is imo the most important skill. And "Dan" Fairbairn and Ed Lovette and a bunch of other guys with serious experience all agree with this. Reloading under pressure is way down on the list of necessary skills because it seldom, very seldom, happens. Even for LEOs.

I'll add that you are right that tac reloads are one of the most oft-taught skills. I think it is a waste of time that could better be spent on developing fast accurate shooting from the holster. And if you do that, you shouldnt need to reload.

 

[centac]

Just because one skill is important doesnt lessen the value of another skill. The fast and accurate first round is indeed critical, but so is keeping the gun feed. It appears that the number of rounds fired in a gunfight is increasing, so for those of us with single stacks and revolvers better know our reloads. Reloads also tie into immediate actions - you need the same skillset to do either.

IMHO and experience, the fast draw is probably of least importance - most LE gunfights of which I am aware start with the pistol already in hand. Ambushes are relatively rare in LE, the same may or may not apply to civilian self defense. If someone is caught off-guard they have already essentially lost the fight

 

[The Rabbi]

Just because one skill is important doesnt lessen the value of another skill.

You're not saying all skills are equally important, right? But just as I pointed out above time and resources are limited so it makes sense to me to prepare for the most likely and then go down the list from there. There are cases where shooting a handgun at 100 yards was critical and not too many people practice that and I dont blame them. I dont practice that either.
I cant comment on LEO shootings or why round count is increasing. I suspect it is increasing just because there are more rounds available.

 

[GRB]

Rabbi,

I never said that you claimed drawing fast and then firing one shot (i.e.: the first shot) accurately was the only important skill. I do however, regard drawing FAST or QUICKLY out of the holster as being much less than the most important skill even if combined with shooting accurately. Even shooting accurately, by itself, is not the most important skill (although I do not belittle the need to shoot accurately). Shooting accurately is, of course a requisite skill among those at the top but, it is not necessarily the top skill.

It is less than responsible to think that speed out of the holster and speed to shot an accurate first shot are the top skills to obtain. The most important skill in any tactical situation is your skill of assessment. Assessment or lack of it is probably why so many LEOs today shoot so many rounds so wildly, they are taught what you are preaching - SPEED on the draw (which often leads to speed on the trigger) as opposed to good sound assessment followed by action. While they, may be accurate on paper at the range, real life is another thing. If any of your experts doubt that threat assessment is the TOP skill then they are not as expert as you or they claim to be.

Of course, good threat assessment can lead to a quick draw, and a quick and accurate first shot. Speed can be what is needed but; more likely it is not speed that counts as topmost skill in many shootouts. Drawing and shooting a firearm before thinking and before taking other possibly more appropriate actions can be as deadly as doing nothing. Good use of cover (if at all possible) before you even think of firing often is better when it can be had. For instance, let's use a real world scenario that has become all to common. A store clerk is being robbed. The store clerk has a registered fully legal pistol on his/her hip. There is also a counter between the clerk and the bad guy. The counter is just that a counter. Should the clerk stand there and make a quick draw and try to out shoot the bad guy - is that the most important skill of which you write. I would think a good assessment of the situation would probably call for getting down behind the counter for cover or concealment (whichever it offers), moving to the strong side of the bad guy, drawing your own weapon and firing (if need dictates) from behind cover or concealment if a clear shot is afforded to you or making your escape if possible. Do you really think that slapping leather and getting off a shot while standing virtually toe to toe is the way to go? This is what it sounds like in your post. You are already on the terms the bad guy set up, why not put him on the terms you set up and take the advantage.


This is not the make believe old west of television shoot-em up series. This is the real world about which we are writing (albeit via the virtual world). Sometimes you draw and do not fire for several seconds as you make to cover and assess. Sometimes maybe you do not fire at all because the act of you drawing was enough. Sometimes you may not even have to draw because you are scrambling for cover or because you decide that a weapons grab (or other hand to hand combat) is the best move. Other times running away may be just the trick. Please do not preach THE most important skills are about drawing FAST then shooting accurately - that is pure baloney in many if not most situations. It is something that gets people cut up, stabbed or dead in knife on gun situations with about 30 feet of one another. Sure it is what is needed sometimes but not all the time. It is not the most important skill by a long shot. Good assessment of the situation, is the most important skill because from your good assessment of the situation comes all of your other actions.

There are many skills of which to be aware for someone who carries a gun. You can choose to lean how to balance yourself and then quickly peddle a bicycle and leave it at that. I prefer to learn how to balance, peddle, steer and apply the brakes among other skills. When we both come to the big curvy road going downhill and, we wind up going down it who stands the getter chance to survive. It is much the same in a firearms related fight. If you know how to quickly draw and shoot the first shot accurately, and even then shoot other shots accurately are you telling me you are as well prepared as anyone who has been trained and who has practiced for other possibilities in a gunfight other than standing toe to toe. If you run out of ammo your gun is a club at best. If I run out of ammo, if my gun jams, if the mag gets dropped accidentally or tactically, if I face multiple assailants, IF I EVER NEED TO, I can reload under the stress of a firefight.

It does not take a lot of money, nor a lot of time, to start learning how to reload for tactical situations. It is part of learning how to properly use your weapon for self defense. It is a good idea to do so. It may save your life someday. I cannot over stress the need to be aware of and to be well practiced in, how to tactically reload for anyone who carries a firearm for self defense or for their job. In a nutshell: IT IS A BASIC SKILL TAUGHT IN ANY TACTICAL FIREARMS TRAINING CLASS INCLUDING CLASSES FOR SELF DEFENSE.


Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[rock jock]

The real question is: are those stupid tactical reloads necessary?

 

[GRB]

Any reload to improve your chances of surviving a gunfight would, in essence, be a tactical reload. Are they necessary? Sure when you need to reload during a gunfight they are necessary. You can bet your life on that.

Did you have something particular in mind when you say "stupid" tactical reload? The stupid thing would be to find you don't know how or when to reload in a tactical situation.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[centac]

I define a tactical reload as swapping a partially depleted magazine in the gun for a fully loaded one during a lull in the action, and they are by no means stupid. I think that they are probably done far more frequently than some blinding fast emergency reload from slide lock in the middle of the fight.

Keeping the gun topped off is never stupid.

Just to throw gas on the fire, i would contend that the one skill that is far and away the most important is trigger management. No matter how quick you are or how well you can line up the sights, if you are a trigger basher, you are a loser.

 

[Mannlicher]

In a word jrob, yeah. Come on, that wasn't a serious question, was it?

 

[The Rabbi]

It is less than responsible to think that speed out of the holster and speed to shot an accurate first shot are the top skills to obtain. The most important skill in any tactical situation is your skill of assessment.

Actually it's skill in avoidance. But we could play this game forever.

In terms of pure mechanics of shooting I will maintain that the single most important skill is hitting the target quickly and accurately. Everything else is secondary to that.
Walt Rauch had an article somewhere where he questioned the wisdom of spending so much time on tac reloads. He made good points and I agree wholeheartedly with it. The tac reload is not something to do under stress of an active gunfight. It is for the lull in the gunfight or in the aftermath (the administrative reload). During the gunfight the strategy should be to run the pistol dry. If you have time to do a tac reload then you have time to shoot the opponent and I know which one I would rather be doing.
That said the number of times this comes into play for the private citizen is probably zilch. So why spend inordinate time and resources on it?

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I would like to address the notion that there are "important skills." As Rabbi has already pointed out, there are few skills that are truly a waste to practice.

No skill is any more important than another. Certainly one may occur more frequently in gunfights than others, but that does not mean we can neglect one in favor of another. In a fight skills will fall into one of two categories:

1. Skills that circumstances require you to perform.

2. Skills that the circumstances do not require you to perform.

By way of example, Rabbi suggested that drawing and firing an accurate first shot should take priority over reloading. I must disagree. On its face this seems to be a reasonable assertion. However, what happens when my survival hinges not my ability to deliver an accurate 1st shot from the holster, but rather on my ability to reload my weapon? Or clear a double feed with only my weak hand?

If you are forced to defend yourself, your particular situation may meet some pre-conceived notion of what a gunfight is and it may not. The fight will be what it is, not what you want it to be.

Rabbi also correctly pointed out that we are limited in the amount of time or resources we have to train. His position, as I understand it, is that the little time/resources we have should be devoted to those skills which we perceive to be most beneficial. I believe you can have your cake and eat it too. All that is required is a little imagination.

To continue using Rabbi's example, how difficult would it be to only load three rounds in the magazine when I conduct my draw and fire practice, reloading each time the slide locked back? I still get my draw and fire practice in but I am able to work my reloads too. The amount of time added to my practice session would be minimal.

What I am talking about is being well-rounded, ensuring we have the skill required to respond to the circumstances at hand. It requires effort but not an inordinate amount. There are not any shortcuts. You can confront the problem of reloading or weak-hand malfunction clearance or some other seldom-required skill on the practice range or in the fight. Which would you prefer?

The point is no one can tell you what a necessary skill is in a gunfight. Not Ed Lovette, "Dan" Fairbairn, me or anyone else who posted. We can't tell you because no one knows the circumstances under which your gunfight (if it ever happens) will occur.

Is gunfight reloading a necessary skill? Only if you need to reload in a gunfight.

 

[The Rabbi]

Blackhawk 6: with that logic everything should be practiced and practiced. That includes shots at 100 yards or more (your life might depend on that), reloading a revolver with one hand, racking the slide with one hand only, both strong and weak, reloading the magazine with one hand, proficiency with every handgun made,taking the gun apart in the dark and putting it back together again, etc etc ad infinitum and ad nauseum. It will keep the gun schools in business but beyond that I dont see much virtue in it.
Nor do we conduct the rest of our lives this way. Someone may have 1 spare tire, one jack, and one fire extinguisher in his vehicle. He may know how to drive in heavy traffic, in heavy rain, in snow, at high speeds and with one hand. Those are situations that happen infrequently but often enough to want to be prepared for them. But if we applied Blackhawk 6's model to our cars it would look something like this:
Equipment: 2 spare tires, 2 cans of inflation agent, full oil change gear, extra parts and supplies for entire car, several lights, radio, back up cell phone etc. Skills: full emergency troubleshooting of any automotive system, ability to drive in any condition, ability to start and operate car with one hand, one foot or any combination, ability to stop car without brakes, ability to make rapid turnarounds,etc etc. No one would argue that these skills couldnt be usefull at some time. But no one will argue they are all equally desirable and in real life no one goes to that kind of trouble.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Rabbi,

I believe your are equating the time spent practicing a skill with its importance. This is not necessarily the case.

That includes shots at 100 yards or more (your life might depend on that), reloading a revolver with one hand, racking the slide with one hand only, both strong and weak, reloading the magazine with one hand, proficiency with every handgun made,taking the gun apart in the dark and putting it back together again, etc

I do believe that everything you mentioned above is important. How hard is it to save 5 rounds and shoot them at 100 yards at the end of a practice session? How hard is it to spend 5 minutes once a week or once a month working on one-handed reloads or malfunction clearance? How hard is it to ask the guy behind the counter at the gun store to show you how to operate a handgun/rifle/shotgun you are not familiar with or put a few rounds through a buddy's firearm? I've cleaned my rifle in the dark more than once.

Are reloads important? Ask Trooper Philip Lamonco or Highway Patrolman James Pence or Special Agent John Hanlon; all shot while reloading.

Is one-handed manipultion of your weapon important? Not as long as you have full use of both arms. So as long as I never break or sprain my arm, dislocate my shoulder, suffer a debilitating wound fending of a knife or club while bringing my firearm into play.... I am good to go.

It will keep the gun schools in business but beyond that I dont see much virtue in it.

Not once did I mention a gun school nor do I believe they are necessary to achieve a reasonable degree of proficiency. I have attended more than my fair share and as I see it their biggest benefit is to force you out of your comfort zone. For example, I recently attended a course where I was required to engage targets with my rifle and reload using my strong-hand only.

Is this a likely scenario? No, but I can think of two examples where an individual was required to use these skills.

Will this become a staple of my practice sessions? Probably not. But it is something I will work on occasionally.

To use your automotive example, I suppose I should not have spent anytime learning to parallel park. Of course, it came in handy that time I was in Washington D.C......

You can either inject reality into your training or have reality inject itself into your gunfight. Either way, I hope it works out for you.