Class or Study Course for FFL?

[il.bill]

VooDoo -

Be careful. I have enjoyed reading many of your posts and would hate to hear that a stint in federal prison interrupts them. Your initial post in this thread appears to raise numerous 'red flags'.

Frank Ettin and dogtown tom always seem to know what they are talking about, and it sounds like you now have a better understanding of what may constitute being in the 'business of buying and selling firearms'. A special thanks to Frank for including the link http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8702897#post8702897. An FFL may well be in your future, since you seem to have the requisite attention to detail, IF you can have a location for a legal transaction of the business.

It could be that those neglected Colt 1903 pistols think of you as one of their guardian angels, so it is important for you to stick around on the right side of the law..

 

[JRH6856]

It occurs to me that since the 1903 is obviously over 50 years old, perhaps (if efforts were confined to guns of this age) only a C&R FFL would be needed. I don't believe that would require a store front.

 

[il.bill]

It occurs to me that since the 1903 is obviously over 50 years old, perhaps (if efforts were confined to guns of this age) only a C&R FFL would be needed. I don't believe that would require a store front.

An 03FFL would certainly not require a storefront, since it is NOT a license to do business, even in qualified C&R firearms. I can use mine to buy and sell C&R firearms only to "enhance my collection", not to buy and sell with the intent to make a profit. Thus that word "intent" is still a significant issue.

 

[JRH6856]

An 03FFL would certainly not require a storefront, since it is NOT a license to do business, even in qualified C&R firearms. I can use mine to buy and sell C&R firearms only to "enhance my collection", not to buy and sell with the intent to make a profit. Thus that word "intent" is still a significant issue.

So I guess it hinges on whether actual intent is as expressed in Post #1, or Post #10 which offers a more detailed description.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I misspoke /misrepresented my actual position in my opening post - I have not yet purchased any guns for resale. I was approached at the LGS when my 4th Colt arrived (destined for rebuild and my collection) about the possibility of purchasing one of my upgraded pistols by a guy I know pretty well. We discussed it...later at the range shooting a couple of my guns the discussion again turned to maybe selling some guns and using the proceeds to move up the food chain. I asked the LGS FFL holder and we talked.

I presented the idea here and then started researching and reading about exactly what this idea would entail but have to state emphatically at this point that I have not yet purchased any guns with the intention of resale. I'd considered doing that as I think I could make enough at it to save dozens of these guns and get them into the hands of folks who'd appreciate them.

But I now understand that this course of action is *way* too deep for me since we have discussed it and I have consulted the ATF and my attorney about getting an FFL and setting up a business doing the upgrades. Not gonna happen - too much investment in time and hoop jumping for me to have an FFL. My original idea was to collect them until it was presented to me that others might like to play as well...I'm also an entrepreneurial kind of guy and can see the possibility of a win/win situation here *but*, as already stated, I will not cheat or misrepresent my intentions. Not to the public, to potential buyers, or to the ATF. I do not cheat or break the law....even the appearance of impropriety makes my hair stand up.

So, they stay as collectibles for me and as a hobby venture of buying the ones I can afford and improving them and shooting them/collecting them. I'm still wondering about the many, many folks I see selling hundreds of guns on GunBroker that are not FFL dealers. How is that happening?

VooDoo

 

[JRH6856]

I'm still wondering about the many, many folks I see selling hundreds of guns on GunBroker that are not FFL dealers. How is that happening?

It is happening the same way any illegal act happens. Just because a law is passed doesn't mean that people who don't mind ignoring the law will not ignore it.

If you mean, how does ATF allow it to happen, I suspect ATF would rather fish for trophy bass than bream.

 

[Frank Ettin]

So, they stay as collectibles for me and as a hobby venture of buying the ones I can afford and improving them and shooting them/collecting them.....

As a hobby, there's nothing wrong with deriving one's satisfaction and fun from the "action" of dealing. With any sort of collectable there are folks whose real pleasure isn't owning that painting or watch or antique table or baseball card; it's the buying and selling of such things. The difference is that one doesn't need a license to deal in baseball cards. But he does need a license to deal in guns.

...I'm still wondering about the many, many folks I see selling hundreds of guns on GunBroker that are not FFL dealers. How is that happening?

Is it happening? We know that there are a great many folks on Gunbroker who aren't licensed, but have you really tracked and complied their activity? Many people each selling a gun or two accumulates to many guns being sold, but perhaps not that many of those people are even getting close to the "dealing" threshold. I don't know myself, but I wouldn't simply assume that most, or even many, non-dealers on Gunbroker are necessarily doing enough business individually to be at risk.

Perhaps a few are. And maybe one or more of them will get tagged someday.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Is it happening? We know that there are a great many folks on Gunbroker who aren't licensed, but have you really tracked and complied their activity? Many people each selling a gun or two accumulates to many guns being sold, but perhaps not that many of those people are even getting close to the "dealing" threshold. I don't know myself, but I wouldn't simply assume that most, or even many, non-dealers on Gunbroker are necessarily doing enough business individually to be at risk.

Perhaps a few are. And maybe one or more of them will get tagged someday.

Well, their official GB profiles say they have completed (the ones I looked at - certainly not all of them) 100+ transactions and are not FFL dealers. Even without tracking these individuals certainly with 100+ transactions they purchased/acquired the majority of these guns to resell. And that would make them "dealers" with the intent of selling guns.

I know it's childish but it strikes me as unfair that a guy who'd like to improve and resell perhaps half a dozen or so guns a year on a hobby basis (there ain't gonna be *that* much profit...) is flirting with a jail sentence but dozens of guys are doing it openly (some for a decade it seems...) and applauded or enabled with open arms. :banghead:

I'm good with it I guess...since I won't cheat or skirt the law to proceed I'll sit in the back seat and be content to buy up what examples I can afford and let others visit them as members of my collection.

Childish but that's how it strikes me. Cheaters prosper - I sit on my hands.

VooDoo

 

[dogtown tom]

Vodoun da Vinci .....their official GB profiles say they have completed (the ones I looked at - certainly not all of them) 100+ transactions and are not FFL dealers. Even without tracking these individuals certainly with 100+ transactions they purchased/acquired the majority of these guns to resell. And that would make them "dealers" with the intent of selling guns.

I only sell at 4-5 gun shows a year....all at Dallas Market Hall.

There are more than a few guys who have rented tables at every Market Hall show for the last ten years and have tables full of guns.......and they don't hold an FFL or Texas sales tax certificate.

I've caught more than one of my customers at a show selling the gun I transferred to him just the week before. And one of those was eventually served a "cease and desist" letter for selling firearms without an FFL. It didn't matter as he was arrested last spring for stealing a gun from a dealer at the Big Town Gun Show in Mesquite.

If you buy a firearm with the intent to resell for profit.....you better have an FFL.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

If you buy a firearm with the intent to resell for profit.....you better have an FFL.

Exactly. Where the line is and how it can be proven is not something I would ever want to try and defend in court as my Lawyer has told me....if I want to do this, even on a "hobby" level, I need to have an FFL and abide by all the details that having an FFL includes. Which is too much for the level of activity and the goals I have set. So it *must* stay a collection with me with no intent to buy and sell. Ever. I cannot/will not be accused and possibly risk defending my self in court over trying to find a few orphan guns and improve/customize them and get them into the hands of other aficionados. Getting an FFL and making it totally legal to do so contains so much detailed ambiguity and so many legal requirements that it takes it off the table as an option.

My grief over the subject stems from the fact that hundreds, perhaps thousands or tens of thousands, are doing exactly what I thought I'd like to do without an FFL and calling it "collecting" or "hobby" and have no questions asked even after doing it for many years and at a level/frequency that positively dwarfs my idea of customizing a few guns a year for others and using the sales proceeds to continue beyond a level of my personal finances.

The folks who displayed interest in buying a few of my projects will have to buy their own guns and research/procure their own repairs and mods on their own dime. I'd love to do it for them as I have become adept and focused on finding likely candidates and managed to negotiate prices that keep it in perspective...I have compiled a list of credible craftsmen and gun sellers and vetted several 'smiths and refinishers and done all the legwork and invested my personal funds to test the product of this concept. I'd love to help folks do this.

Actually I'm angry at even having considered it now....it just frustrates me. :banghead: But I think we have banged this subject and my intentions and involvement to the bitter end now and I'm asking for the thread to be closed with sincere thanks to anyone/everyone who participated and helped me get useful information.

VooDoo

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I am not really understanding why this is so complicated.

The OP stated his intent was to buy these guns, fix them up, and then sell them. That's the key part. His INTENT is to buy and sell. That makes it a business, regardless of whether he intends to turn a profit vs. indulge a hobby.

If his intent was just buy the guns and fix them up, then maybe sell one or two at some point, that would not be a business.

But since his intent is to BUY AND SELL, now it's a business.

 

[Teachu2]

The folks who displayed interest in buying a few of my projects will have to buy their own guns and research/procure their own repairs and mods on their own dime. I'd love to do it for them as I have become adept and focused on finding likely candidates and managed to negotiate prices that keep it in perspective...I have compiled a list of credible craftsmen and gun sellers and vetted several 'smiths and refinishers and done all the legwork and invested my personal funds to test the product of this concept. I'd love to help folks do this.

VooDoo

No reason you can't help them along, or even restore guns and resell them AT COST. Keep a sptral notebook log, list each gun on it's own page, and itemize all costs associated with that gun on it's page. If you end up with $497.58 in a gun by the time you've shipped it back and forth and gotten it fixed up, that's the maximum you should sell it for. That clearly documents you had no intent to profit.

 

[Teachu2]

BTW, I've had home-based FFLs twice, and don't intend to ever do so again. They don't give a hoot for when your business hours are - they show up unannounced way outside your business hours (that THEY approved when you applied) and hassle you if you don't rearrange your life to fit their hours. And it's gotten much more expensive - hard to justify unless you sell hundreds.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Closed at OP's request.