Classifying the Magpul AFG

[Nivek]

As far as legal definitions and interpretations, is there any way to get into trouble with the Magpul AFG? I know it's not a vertical/pistol grip, but I have an AR pistol that I want to mount an AFG on. Had the thought that it could possibly push the gun into the realm of an SBR? I tried to find something to clarify all the laws that may affect this, but wasn't able to find much. If you have an opinion, or better yet the facts to back it up, please share!

 

[Rail Driver]

It wouldn't make the gun an SBR (need a stock for that) but it MAY make it an AOW. You'll probably want to get an opinion letter from the ATF if they say it's ok.

(Hey Mister Jones, can Billy come out to play? friggin pointless regulation. The National Firearms Act is an infringement!)

 

[Nivek]

Yeah, I think you're right on it being an AOW instead of an SBR. Should've caught that one myself, but thanks for the correction.
Anybody who has contacted the ATF for this sort of question, do you have an email address or postal address for a good contact? Looked at their website, and all I really found was an address for "general questions" ([email protected]). Not sure if that's going to get me what a want, such as a quick, knowledgable reply, complete with any applicable references.
If you've got a specific person you've dealt with before, or had good experience with a certain method of contact, please let me know!

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

I called the 24 hour hotline a couple times when fedex miss delivered a rifle, and both people I spoke with were very helpful.

I'd write to the ATF technical branch for their opinion on this. If they say it is ok, you are in the clear, if not you could sue in federal court but it would probably be cheaper to buy a stamp.

 

[Nivek]

Just called the 1-800 number on the ATF website. The guy I talked to was very friendly, but not an NFA expert. He gave me a number for NFA customer service, which is 304-616-4500. They are only open M-F, 9AM-430PM, so I will have to call tomorrow. Probably a good number to have on hand though. Admin sticky this number maybe?

 

[Nivek]

Also, just found THIS THREAD from several months ago. Apparently Search=Fail.

After reading the older thread, I've wrote Magpul asking them for any information, and I will wait for their reply before I contact the Feds again. Will keep you guys posted on the reply!

 

[smince]

A Streamlight TRL is very grip-like and not in so much of a gray area.

 

[hirundo82]

The ATF has apparently already ruled that the AFG is legal to add to an AR-15 pistol; see question 7 here.

I'm not sure how they reconcile that with their 2006 letter saying that installing a VFG on a handgun requires registration as an AOW. The relevant part of that letter states:

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch.

Following that reasoning an AFG would have to be registered too (although that reasoning has been rejected in at least one court case). ATF has never been big on consistency though.

 

[Krusty783]

Well, the AFG is not a vertical grip nor is it a pistol grip. In fact, it's most similar to the grips you install to get around the pistol grip AWB provisions, like these: http://bumpfire.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1086 I would think that it would be quite a touchy legal subject to try & allow the stocks like above, but outlaw the AFGs.

Also, since you can use the same grip on a fore-end with or without an AFG, I could see someone arguing that the AFG is only an ergonomic device, and banning it would be discriminating against people with carpal tunnel / arthritis, etc.

 

[kwelz]

Interesting. That is different from what I have seen before. However there it is in writing.

 

[stsimons]

Seems this is not quite a settled issue. Check this out! Directly answers the question at hand. However, I don't trust the ATF not to change its mind on a whim...

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en

 

[Prince Yamato]

Save the letter to your hard drive. Print out a hard copy. If you're ever questioned by anyone, you have evidence that what you did was considered legal.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The best way to handle this is to write the ATF yourself and get a written response. This gives you a written response addressing your exact situation with your name at the top of the letter saying "Yes" or "No."

Relying on someone else's letter posted online is an iffy proposition, better than no letter at all; but it doesn't necessarily mean you are covered.

 

[Quiet]

Relying on someone else's letter posted online is an iffy proposition, better than no letter at all; but it doesn't necessarily mean you are covered.

I agree!

 

[Micromancer]

I know this is an old thread, and I don't generally post here however I noticed that Googledocs letter was referenced here, and no actual sense of closure came after that. When I received my response I posted the text of my email exchange over at my main home forum as well as another forum I read occasionally so they could see for themselves. I now do the same for you.

On 12/5/2010 I sent an email inspired by my own curiosity after reading a thread on AR-15 pistols over at Arfcom. Wherein, someone had posted a link to a Googledocs posting of their response about several questions, the last of which was "Can I put an AFG on my AR-15 pistol legally" The answer was "Yes" but that doesn't really cover if it's legal if you get an AOW stamp, or if its legal and does not need a stamp.

So even though people on that forum were basically saying god no no one ask them this is enough for me to risk an NFA violation and claim ignorance, I am not a regular member there and didn't really care if they didn't want me to ask: I had to know.

I sent a letter detailing a specific encounter at a local SOT and asked several questions, one of which was Does installing an AFG on an AR-15 pistol make it an AOW? Since the answer was NO, they apparently ignored the rest of my conditional questions on it being yes and added in some stuff I didn't ask at all. The following is the email I received from them, along with my original email. My contact info is being redacted, if you need to get hold of me do some legwork, it's not that hard to find me.

EPS Directorate to me
show details 12/28/10 (10 days ago)


Mr. (me),

The BATF has said that the adding of a MAGPUL AFG ( Angle-Fore-Grip ) would not make your pistol an AOW.
However, adding a forward vertical pistol grip to a pistol results in the making of an “any other weapon” class of NFA firearm.

Adding a shoulder stock to a pistol results in the making of a rifle. If the barrel of the resulting firearm is less than 16 inches or the overall length is less than 26 inches then you have made a “short barreled rifle” or “weapon made from a rifle” class of NFA firearm.

You will need to submit an ATF Form 1 (with tax paid) along with a law enforcement approval letter and two fingerprint cards to the NFA Branch of ATF, located at 244 Needy Rd., Martinsburg, WV 25405. Once your form 1 is approved and returned to you; only then can you actually make the NFA firearm. You may obtain an ATF Form 1 package on line at the ATF.gov website or by writing the NFA Branch at the above address.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust you find this email responsive to your request.

ATF – Enforcement Programs and Services


From: (Me) [mailtomygmailaccount)@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 10:59 AM
To: EPS Directorate
Subject: [NFA] How to register an AR-15 Pistol as an AOW

Dear Sirs:

I have recently built an AR-15 pistol and would like to install a Magpul angled foregrip on it. There is a letter from the ATF that has been posted online where a similar situation was asked about, and the specific question was "Can I lawfully install a Magpul AFG [...] on my AR-15 type pistol?" The answer was "yes". It did not however say "Yes you can without having to register it as an AOW", nor did it specify that in so installing an AFG legally on your pistol AR-15 would entail registering it as an AOW. There is a local licensed manufacturer who has refused to do the installation on the grounds that the AR-15 pistol needed to be a virgin receiver and since I have already made it a pistol, it is no longer eligible to be registered as an AOW. When I asked them why then could I register it as an SBR, their answer to me was "that's different". Ultimately since they would not incur a manucafturing tax stamp and would be able to transfer it back to me at $5 I would much rather have done this than having to install it myself. It is one screw and approximately two minutes of labor. Installation of a vertical foregrip to turn the pistol into an AOW would mean I need to pay a $200 tax stamp to do the work myself but might not even cover allowing the gun to have an afg on it if I were to register it this way. To view the ATF letter referenced previously please click: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en&pli=1

Having read the preceeding, here are the questions I have:

Is the Magpul Angled Foregrip considered a vertical foregrip for the purposes of the NFA? Why or Why Not?

If I chose to do the work myself, is there anything I would need to do other than the actual installation of the AFG to legally do so to my AR-15 pistol?

Does installing a Magpul AFG on an AR-15 pistol constitute turning the pistol into an AOW and therefore requires the pistol be registered in the NFA?

If installing an AFG on an AR-15 pistol does make it an AOW, once it is legally registered as such to accept the AFG, would I then also be able to install other foregrips vertical or otherwise or run with no foregrip at all should I choose to remove it or would I be forced to keep the gun in its registered condition and not remove the AFG at all?

Can a licensed manufacturer of NFA weapons install the foregrip for me on a completely built AR-15 pistol and transfer the weapon to me for the $5 transfer fee?

Assuming the manufacturer I spoke with was correct, why is it I can register this pistol as an SBR but not an AOW?

I sincerely appreciate your time, and look forward to your response.

Thank you,
(me)

Needless to say, this was not exactly the response I was expecting. I post it here so that you might also contact them and get your own confirmation should you wish to do the same thing (if that is even at all possible considering your local laws).

Thank you for your time, feel free to spread this around.

Some people are of the opinion that everyone should already know the AFG isn't a vertical foregrip so there is no reason to spread the word. For the rest of you that were as mistaken as I was, this post is for you.

Write the ATF, get your own letter to protect yourself. But do by all means put that AFG on your pistol AR. I love mine, click for big.

 

[wnycollector]

Micromancer, thanks for the post. The legality of adding a AFG makes picking up a KT PLR-16 much more enticing