Clean Your Range Bag before Flying!

[Rob62]

Here is some info that may be helpfull to others in the future.

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Flying with a firearm regulations


This is the Code or Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 14, Chapter I,
Sec. 108.11 Carriage of weapons.
(d) No certificate holder may knowingly permit any person to transport, nor may any person transport or tender for transport, any unloaded firearm in checked baggage aboard an airplane unless--

(1) The passenger declares to the certificate holder, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage, that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;

(2) The firearm is carried in a container the certificate holder considers
appropriate for air transportation;

(3) When the firearm is other than a shotgun, rifle, or other firearm normally fired from the shoulder position, the baggage in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

(4) The baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area, other than the flightcrew compartment, that is inaccessible to passengers.

Note: The 'certificate holder' is the airline.
Note: 108.11, (d), (3) specifies only for handguns does this apply, but as we will see according to the actual TSA regs it applies to all firearms.

And for the regulations that apply to the TSA folks (which they did not know and you would think that they would) It appears that 14 CFR 108 has been recoded in 49 CFR as follows:

This is the reg that applies to the individual travelling:
CFR Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter 12, Part 1540, Section 1540.111
or more commonly referred to as 49CFR1540.111


TITLE 49—TRANSPORTATION CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1540--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.


This is the reg that applies to the screening of the baggage for the TSA to follow:
49 CFR 1544.203


TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1544--AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Operations

Sec. 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;
(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and
(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment,.

Note: Here the rules are for any firearm, not just handguns as found in the FAA regs under 14 CFR 108.11.

Here is the FAQ on the TSA website:
http://www.tsa.dot.gov/public/faq.jsp

Can I still transport a firearm in checked baggage? Subject to state and local restrictions on transporting firearms you may still transport a firearm in your checked baggage. However you should first check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Ask about limitations or fees if any that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded packed in a locked hard-sided gun case and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you the passenger may have the key or combination. Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm. Small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container ? securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amount of ammunition. In addition small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container: "securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition." Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm.

 

[akodo]

Well I guess. I just take it a little personal when people start saying we don't need the TSA. It they want it to be reformed, then thats all fine and dandy....maybe then I will go work for them again. But to say we don't need them is like saying we don't need a military. Sure we don't NEED a military in peace time (outside of a deterrent..which I guess you could say the TSA still serves that).....but what about when the **** hits the fan?\

I in no way see the TSA as needed, any more than a thousand other government beaurocratic jobs. Allow law abiding citizens to carry on the plane, and **** will sort itself out.

If we are going to have some sort of fed agency related to fight security, they need to scrap TSA and start over

oh, and as for the "We're such good folks that when we get bored we jump at any chance to stomp on people," well, when someone comes through a the security check point and is asked to "step over here for a search" because they set off the metal detector, and they start making a scene like they are too good for it, you better believe they are getting every item full inspected....I personally would make sure they are getting the Nth degree

I cannot believe you are defending this postion. No, just because someone 'has an attitude' does not mean you can deviate from your standard professional norm. To do so is harrassment. Again, TSA needs to be disbanded, dismantled, and thrown into the dustbin of history.

They are doing what they have to do to meet regulations. When people give attitude for no reason other than their own politcal beliefs, its like "dude, if you did this at McDonalds, someone would spit in your food. Just be happy I can only waste 10 minutes of your time."


What are you saying here? It is unacceptable for people to express their own political beliefs? So you are for the government trampling on the 1st amendment? And second, you try and justify terrible behavior with the caveat that somewere else is worse? So when a woman gets her purse snatched the criminal should say 'and just think, if this was 4th street they'd probably shoot you in the face too!'

I would LOVE it if a TSA employee said 'I can only waste 10 minutes of your time' because he and I would no longer be working any more. I'd retire off the settlment and he could go back to burgerking

 

[akodo]

Right. So lets let them blow it up instead.

Outlaw, that comment would only be applicable if the TSA were taking action in a way that could prevent a blowup.

1000 of boxed ammo = okay
500 boxed, 5 loose = not okay

That has nothing to do with how effective ammo is as an explosive.

 

[Harold Mayo]

So merely asking for a receipt for confiscated property or asking for a reason or to be shown the relevant regulation is grounds for resisting?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

TSA dinged me pretty good on this trip. Lesson learned: clean your range bags before you fly.

Wrong lesson.

The real lesson is: DON'T FLY.

First, by not flying you completely avoid the TSA imbeciles, the airline imbeciles, the local law enforcement imbeciles who hang around airports, the over-priced and horrid quality airport food (how much did that bottle of water set you back?), and any number of other annoyances, major and minor.

Moreover, if enough Americans would stop flying, and let the gummint know why we've stopped flying, maybe just maybe someone would rein in the TSA imbeciles and bring a semblance of sanity to the whole air travel "security" program.

 

[Outlaws]

I don't know about you guys, but I worked for the place.

Airlines CAN and WILL enforce how much ammo you can have.

I misspoke with the 'hardshell gun case'. I meant locked hard shell container.


To further the regulations almost all airlines have.....ammo must be individually seperated....not away from the guns even...but like how centerfire ammo comes in those plastic things so it isn't loose. (that loose ammo rolling around is why your bag got seached in the first place IMO) I have never had trouble with bulk .22 ammo, but technically most airlines don't allow that style of storage. I know I just flew on Sun Country and I forget if my return trip was United or AMerican, but both my to and from trips the firearm regulations specifically stated that my (2 total in one case) guns AND ammo (limited amount) be in a locked hardsell case with a declaration slip.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Also, ammunition needs to be inside the locked hardshell gun case, not just in your bag.

Citation, please?

I don't think this is correct.

 

[Werewolf]

I did not ask why they wanted my ammo or my knives. I knew that asking questions was not in my best interests and would be construed as "resisting" having represented many individuals who talked themselves into jail, I knew the fact pattern trail I was on (any excuse to wrestle me to the ground would have brought me there). I had a plane to catch and did not want to sit in the detention center for 8 hours and then spend the weekend at federal lock up downtown Indy.

And that my friends is the definition of REAL and TRUE POWER when even an attorney who knows his rights and the law is forced to knuckle under to Jack Booted Thugs for very pragmatic reasons.

And to think some of you honestly do not believe that the USA is on the road to becoming a POLICE STATE. :banghead: Hells Bells! When an ex-TSA goon even admits in a public forum that he sees nothing wrong with firing up citizens who have the audacity to ask WHY how much more evidence do we need?

 

[thechamp]

my 2 cents

Having worked in law enforcement the last 34 years I have to say that there is nothing that scares me more than a power hungry goon with a badge. Makes no difference what agency, whether it's a bad federal agent or the ticket writing moron working for the local speed trap.

I'll be the first to say I do not understand the power of the local "baggage" police but from what I've seen most of them wouldn't make it in a real law enforcment job. The few dealings I've had with them most have been very arrogant and snooty to say the least. Further agree that their local leadership is usually a political appointee who has no clue but has the power of the US Government behind him and his "staff". This can indeed make life very difficult for someone who may run afoul of them while in the performance of their glorified harrassment duties.

For those who don't agree that asking for a receipt could have caused more trouble, you haven't met the right crooks wearing a badge. Believe me there are many who just love to show you who the boss is. They may be lazy and corrupt but they'll come up with the energy to ruin your life if you piss them off.

Our system is the best in the world. However it is far from perfect. I wish their were more checks by the system to find the bad ones and get them out of the business. The others that would be tempted to abuse their power would be less likely to do so if they knew there were folks being sent out to find out just how corrupt and/or crooked they were.

Lastly I agree with others who feel that our own former member of this elite group of goons thinks it's within his power and within his scope of duties to harrass anyone who may voice their opinion or object to their harrassment. Thank God that he is no longer any part of the TSA! That is not the type individual that should have any authority anywhere in this society! If there was ever a reason to save tax money it should start with the abolishment of the TSA. Billions will be spent to accomplish what? (Of course I guess it does keep some of them off welfare and they have to leave home to get a check!)

 

[Outlaws]

Oh I see how it is, its perfectly moral to be rude to people who are just doing their job? So since I am an ex-TSA goon, then a lot of you are ex-Pigs. Or are some currently pigs?

How is being rude to someone at TSA any different than being rude to a police officer? You are rude to a police officer, they give you a ticket for whatever you were stopped for. If you are polite, you can sometimes get off with a warning.

 

[gezzer]

How is being rude to someone at TSA any different than being rude to a police officer

Both are PUBLIC SERVANTS not royalty.

 

[Outlaws]

Both are PUBLIC SERVANTS not royalty.

At least we got that straight.

 

[larry_minn]

Outlaws. I guess it is no point in trying to EDUCATE you.

You are convinced in the POWER the TSA has. Who said be rude?
Please reread your posts.... I have to HOPE you can comprehend what is wrong.

 

[Werewolf]

I worked for TSA at the very beginning before quiting. They are good people its just boring and we need something to do, so the second someone gave us lip it was on like Donkey Kong. You wouldn't believe how many people wuld give us crap at the the very beginning.

Imagine that! Citizens that resent being treated like criminals by the government that is supposed serve them? How very unsheeplike of them.Why hell, they ought'a be taken out back and shot for the sheer audacity of questioning their masters.

How is being rude to someone at TSA any different than being rude to a police officer?

Since 1970 I have seen more than my share of police/citizen confrontations where the citizen was impolite, out of line or just plain rude. Once it was even me. In every case the Police Officer maintained his cool, said yes sir, no sir to the citizen and resolved and calmed the situation without having to resort to rousting, harrasing or taking the citizen down (most of the incidents involved drunks - soldiers off duty - especially young enlisteds tend to get that way). NOTE: Aforementioned incidents all took place prior to 1985 - I cannot vouch for the same level of professionalism in the militarized police of today.

It's too bad the TSA GOONS - and that's what they are - can't behave with as much restraint in what must be a difficult and uncomfortable situation for the people they are tasked with rousting on the orders of our [sarcasm] beloved govermental masters [/sarcasm].

TSA is just the most overt symptom of what's coming...

 

[Cacique500]

Also, ammunition needs to be inside the locked hardshell gun case, not just in your bag.

Actually...

From Delta:

http://www.delta.com/traveling_chec...aggage/fragile_bulky/sporting_goods/index.jsp

Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes

From Fed Regs:

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/cfr/title49/part1540.html#1540.111

(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.

and Title 49 CFR 175 referred to above:

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/cfr/title49/part175.html

(5) Small-arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in his baggage (excluding carry-on baggage) if securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219.

While not specifically required to be in a hard sided container, IMHO it's a good idea (just to keep anybody from screwing with it).

When I fly, I normally carry two pistols (Kimber CDP and Colt Mustang) in a pelican case. I also carry a second, smaller pelican case with my ammunition (factory boxes), empty magazines, and knives (small folders). Both cases are locked with key locks (non-TSA locks) and remember never to hand them the key or give them the combination. Cases are placed in a soft sided 'checked' bag with a TSA lock.

 

[mole]

Once when I was in middle school I took some large gum balls and injected dish washing detergent into them with a syringe. Use a fine enough needle and you can't even tell. I took them to school and left them on out on my desk while I went to the bathroom. I came back and I could tell that the bag had been messed with. During the middle of class a kid suddenly starts coughing and hacking and runs out the door drooling. A fond memory for sure.

I think if I were to fly I'd do the same thing and see if they are still in my bag when I get to my destination. Maybe use my knife to clean out some poison ivy (doesn't effect me) the day before.

If they're gonna steal it, at least get some personal satisfaction out of it.

 

[WayneConrad]

Poisoning someone because they looked in their bag? That ain't right. Might even be a crime. If you want to tell if someone has been in your bag, ending up in jail is one way to do it, I guess.

 

[mole]

I guess I should have been more clear. Just get a little on a pocket knife blade and then put it in a zip lock bag or something. Didn't want to get them if they just looked at it doing their job, but if they stole it and used it.

 

[mp510]

El Tejon, you deserved to loose the loose ammo- you broke the law, and you suffered the consequence for doing such. Be content that they did not give you a citation or ticket, or take you in. As for your other items that were confiscated, I have sympathy for you. Clearly, you were wronged, since you were following the rules.

However, I am not going to be the one to start bashing the TSA or the measures they take, so long as they play by the rules. They do an important job. Yes, there is still a possibility of terrorists being able to hi-jack a jet, but the risk is greatly reduced. One previous poster said something to the extent of "skrew the security measures, the passengers will save the plane". I'm glad that the defender mentality remains, howver whose to say that the next incident will occur over an undeveloped space in the middle of nowhere. What would have happened if Flight 93 had crashed into DC, or some other populated area after the terrorists were killed as opposed to leaving a crater in a field in PA?

Does anyone here remember who the TSA used to take all those nail clippers, lighters, pocket knives and used to sell them on eBay? Sounds like a damn racket to me.

So long as the items were taken as allowed or presecribed by law, I see no problem with the government selling the items, and have no problem with anybody who chooses to purchase the items. Under the circumstances that most of them were taken under, the indivudal that they were taken from was breaking the law. It is a fact that the government has sold confiscated/ evidence items for generations.

I'll add to this! Whats the deal with confiscating a Bullet keychain?? There is clearly no primer in it so how is it a threat?

The rules say you can't have realistic looking replica weapons on a flight. Obviously, the 2" GI Joe M-16 is not a threat and shouls not, IMHO, be confiscated. However, the NRA Silver Bullet keychain looks very much like a real round to the untrained individual's eye, and if not in checked baggage as is required could cause panic on board a flight. I assume that you believe yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre should be protected speech as well?

I went downstairs and gave TSA the key (a mistake I now realize--based on their light fingers hard telling what they could have planted on me). They were back looking at it like the apes on 2001, must have been 20 minutes.

Giving TSA the key was definetely not a mistake. Had you not given it to them, they would still need to inspect your bag. They break the locks if they don't have the ability to open it. Then your non-confiscated items would be less secure.

Both cases are locked with key locks (non-TSA locks) and remember never to hand them the key or give them the combination. Cases are placed in a soft sided 'checked' bag with a TSA lock.

I believe that you are not making a swift move at all. You are subjecting yourself to added inconvenience if the TSA decides that it is necesary to inspect your hardside case.

Flying is not a right but a privilege. As a privlege, you must put up with certain restrictions, which if you don't like, you should opt not to do the activity.

 

[bogie]

You're not supposed to give them keys or combinations. You're supposed to open it for them.

As for "poison." Company I work for used to sell chewing gum. The kind that squirts. One of my cow-orkers bought a big box, and had it sitting on his desk. The level was dropping alarmingly overnight... So he bought another box, and injected a few with some hot sauce. Some _good_ hot sauce. Stuff quit disappearing.

TSA was a make work/make votes endeavor. That's it. Airline security was sufficient prior to 9/11 _if_they_had_actually_done_their_jobs_. After 9/11, people were in full freakout mode, and the government had to do _something_.

 

[DRZinn]

El Tejon, you deserved to loose the loose ammo- you broke the law, and you suffered the consequence for doing such. Be content that they did not give you a citation or ticket, or take you in.

the NRA Silver Bullet keychain looks very much like a real round to the untrained individual's eye, and if not in checked baggage as is required could cause panic on board a flight.

You're kidding, right?

Flying is not a right but a privilege.

Welcome to my ignore list. As only the second resident, you should be very proud.

 

[mp510]

You're kidding, right?

Actually, I was not kidding. However, understand that I do take added steps to avoid doing things that I believe may cause unnecesary freight among other folks. I'll admit it, I don't fly much. Before I fly, I need to basically go through everything to avoid loosing stuff to TSA- and I have yet to loose any item because of my vigilance.

If my having a varying opinion causes me to be on your ignore list, that's your choice, and I have no say in the matter. I will continue to read the posts you write, and may agree or disagree depending on what you say. I thought my post was very thoughtful, given the circumstances.

On a political level, I do believe some of the regulations are a little bit
strict.

As to the pre-9/11 airport security being lax, I believe that it was. The terrorists who borded the flights at Logan sounded the alarms, but the weapons were never found when a closer inspection was done. 3,000 people died as a result.

Obviously, selecting 6 month olds and grandmothers for extra screening does not help protect American citizens from terrorism. Of course we should pay added attention to people who meet the profile of the 'terrorists de jour' but there must be vigilance to a broad spectrum as well. Lest we forget not all terrorists are from other places. Some are home grown, American, white folks. Nobody would have thought McVeigh the culpret in the OKC bombing when it occured.

 

[mp510]

I also would like to thank El Tejon for providing the pertinent advice of making sure you don't have any contraband on you.

 

[Cacique500]

I believe that you are not making a swift move at all. You are subjecting yourself to added inconvenience if the TSA decides that it is necesary to inspect your hardside case.

It is federal law that you keep the key/combo with you - keyword in the regs is RETAIN - I've provided the specific laws in a previous post.

When you declare the firearm TSA inspects the case - either it goes through an x-ray (at the larger airports) or they hand inspect it in a back room with you present (this is usually at smaller airports).

If TSA wants to "re-inspect" my case they better have a !@#$ good reason, especially if they break my locks.

 

[mp510]

It is federal law that you keep the key/combo with you - keyword in the regs is RETAIN - I've provided the specific laws in a previous post.

Thank you for that- I did not notice that. I know with other items, regular baggage, the "threat" in the past was if you don't use a TSA-keyed lock, the lock would be broken if they could not get a key from you. I was oblivious to the difference, having never flown with arms. Thank you!!!