Cleaning 1873 Win clone after black

[stubbicatt]

Been contemplating a Uberti 45 Colt rifle for black powder cartridge shooting. Must one disassemble the entirety of the rifle, remove toggle link, bolt, elevator, etc. each time one cleans this rifle, or may the moving parts be adequately cleaned in situ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Malamute]

No, although they arent very hard to take apart.

I used to shoot black in an old Winchester 86 and Colt Single action. i never took them apart for cleaning. Not much gets back in the action, what does is easily cleaned with tooth brushes and solvent. Hoppes work just fine for cleaning after black BTW, but takes several patches to come clean if used in the bore. Its all that was available in camp when hunting antelope once. Keeping the action clean isnt difficult though.

A 44-40 may be a better choice for using black in a rifle. The cases are thinner and expand and seal the chamber better. Someone with firsthand experience with that combination may be better able to say though.

 

[Tommygunn]

Just for general shooting, no, I'd clean the barrel and the chamber.
After several shootings, or when I sensed it was needed I'd take it apart & clean and lube it.
As Malamute said, taking down a 1873 is not hard. I also agree that you would be better off with the .44-40 as it uses a slightly truncated or bottlenecked case (depending on case manufacturer) as that (and the thinner case wall) helps seal the chamber better. The power difference isn't a lot.

 

[stubbicatt]

So as I understand it, the 45 Colt is not a good choice then because the brass is thicker and one will experience blowback, or leakage past the cartridge into the action.

Thanks fellas for the input. Will have to cogitate on this awhile.

 

[Float Pilot]

Gas and burnt powder Blow-Back from the straight case and an undersized rim was why the 45 Colt was never commercially chambered in original period lever-guns.

I tried not completely cleaning a couple rifles after black powder use. I paid for that mistake with accelerated corrosion. I live in a damp salty-air climate and ANY black powder smoke residue starts eating metal pretty soon after shooting.

I use boiling water and natural lubes.

By the by,,,, There is a product called BAKE EASY for baking pans. I started using it to season black cast iron frying pans. WELL..... It turns out that it also works as a nice light lube and anti fouling agent on my black powder shooting irons.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

A '73 is a good rifle for black powder but I would choose just about anything except .45 Colt as the chambering.

You can get them in .44-40 and .38-40, both of which would be perfect for black powder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

At last count I have five rifles chambered for 44-40 and one chambered for 38-40. I only shoot Black Powder out of all of them. Some are modern reproductions; an Uberti replica 1873 and an Uberti replica 1860 Henry, the others are antiques, two Winchester Model 1892s, a Winchester Model 1873, and a Marlin Model 1894.

These rifles are dedicated to Black Powder. The first thing I do when I acquire a new one is take it completely apart, remove all the old oil and grease, and completely relube everything with Ballistol. If you don't know about Ballistol, it is very friendly to Black Powder, more so than most modern lubricants. I do the same thing with cartridge revolvers that I am going to dedicate to Black Powder; strip out the old lube and replace it with Ballistol.

Yes, 44-40, and 38-40 do seal the chamber better than 45 Colt, keeping fouling in the bore where it belongs. It actually has nothing to do with the bottleneck shape, it is because 44-40 brass tends to run about .007 thick at the case mouth and 45 Colt tends to run about .012 thick at the case mouth. The thinner brass expands more readily to seal the chamber, nothing to do with the shape.

After a day of shooting I clean the bore with my favorite BP compatible solvent. Most use some sort of water based solvent, I prefer a mixture known as Murphy's Mix. Equal parts of Murphy's Oil Soap, rubbing alcohol, and drugstore grade Hydrogen Per Oxide. The water in these ingredients is what does the actual cleaning, the oil soap leaves behind a film of oil when it dries, the alcohol speeds up evaporation, and the per oxide provides a little bit of fizz.

Now here is a little known fact about Black Powder fouling that I discovered quite a few years ago. Everybody knows that BP fouling is extremely dry and will absorb moisture from the air. This moisture will then cause corrosion when held against the steel. But what most folks don't know is if you saturate the fouling with oil, it cannot absorb any water out of the air. Think of it as a sponge that is saturated with water. Once the sponge is saturated it cannot absorb anymore water. With BP fouling, if you soak it with oil, the oil prevents it from absorbing any water. Without absorbing water the BP fouling becomes harmless and will not cause any corrosion. That is why I lube everything down inside the rifle with Ballistol, so whatever fouling creeps down inside will become saturated with oil. Same thing with the Murphy's Mix. Once the water and alcohol evaporate, the oil soap is left behind to coat the bore. Been doing this for years. I usually take my rifles (and revolvers) apart maybe once a year to clean out all the black, oily guck down inside. There is always plenty of black, oily guck, there is never any rust.

Yes, 44-40 (and 38-40) are much more Black Powder friendly than 45 Colt because of the thin brass. The down side is that 44-40 tends to be a bit more 'fussy' to reload than 45 Colt. 45 Colt is dead simple. But because of the thin brass, 44-40 can be a bit fussier to reload. It is not difficult, as you may have heard, but I tend to load a bit slower with 44-40 than 45 Colt so I don't wrinkle any cases.

There are a few tricks for sealing the chamber better with 45 Colt. First off, raise the pressure as much as possible. This means full power loads, no mousefarts. And a good strong crimp is required. And use a heavy bullet to help increase the pressure, 250 grains, not 200 or less. Lastly, some folks only neck size their 45 Colt brass, they do not full length resize. This means the rear of the case will remain in an expanded condition which will help prevent blowback.

But when you get right down to it, 44-40 and 38-40 will seal the chamber better without any extra attention while reloading. Just pour in the powder, seat the bullet, and crimp.

 

[Float Pilot]

Driftwood..
You ever try filling hollow base bullets with soft beeswax as a grease cookie? My long barreled 38 WCF Model likes that for some reason. I put a little piece of wax paper over the powder if the shooting match is more than a couple days away.

Float Pilot aka Iditarod Hammergun

 

[stubbicatt]

Well... nuts.

I have loaded 32-20 before and that was a frustrating experience, what with that really thin brass. I am reluctant to repeat that experience with a 44-40. Can any of you tell me whether that is a common experience between 32-20 and 44-40?

Thanks Driftwood.

Float pilot, the smaller rim on the 45, does this create extraction problems with the 45 Colt when used in a lever rifle?

Any of you fellas use grease cookies or saturated felt wads or the like? I did use these when I loaded black in a 40-65 Pedersoli Sharps years ago. Can't say that it made any difference in the fouling, as that stuff was crusty and hard, and that silly blow tube never did anything I could detect to keep it any softer.

What diameter bullets would one choose for either 44-40 or 45 Colt? Guess I'd have to slug the bore of any of said rifles/revolvers to be certain. Is there a mould number that has big old grease grooves that people have had success with?

Thanks guys.

 

[Malamute]

the smaller rim on the 45, does this create extraction problems with the 45 Colt when used in a lever rifle?

I dont think its an issue today, though I dont have very much experience in that exact aspct. The problem was in older cases. Go find the 45 Colt thread that Bob started. Theres some good pictures posted by Driftwood Johnson showing the different types of cases used over time. Since solid head cases became the norm, the groove thats now common was able to be cut into the body of the case just ahead of the rim, something not practical with the older balloon head cases. It gives more purchase for an extractor, effectively making the rim wider for rifle extractors.

 

[Float Pilot]

The original 45 Colt brass back during the actual black powder cartridge era and early smokeless period had a very small rim. It was designed for the Colt single action pistol (SAA) and that gun used a rod ejector. Experiments conducted by Winchester back in the 1870s showed that the 45 Colt cartridges of that era did not reliably extract when the firearm was dirty and fouled.
Heck-Fire, in 1908 the US Army even added an extra large rim to 45 Colt ammo for the model of 1909 double action 45 Colt pistol. Although Colt itself did not see any reason to do so.

Modern 45 Colt brass is made with a different method and they improved the ability to grip the rim by making a groove into the case head just above the rim. I believe that the modern cartridge cases for the 45 Colt also hold less black powder, as they are now made for smokeless at higher pressures.

 

[CraigC]

I have loaded 32-20 before and that was a frustrating experience, what with that really thin brass. I am reluctant to repeat that experience with a 44-40. Can any of you tell me whether that is a common experience between 32-20 and 44-40?

I s hoot quite a bit of .38-40 out of a Uberti 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifle and a Ruger Blackhawk. I ruined a few cases in the beginning but can't remember the last time I crumpled one. You just learn to be a little more careful with the case mouths. You'll prevent a lot of issues by using Starline brass over Remchester.

 

[Milkmaster]

Does a model 1873 clone stay clean with the .357 cartridge? Does the .357 seal well or can I expect lots of blow by like described above? One of the beautiful things about the lever guns is having a repeater while keeping the crud down the barrel and not in the receiver.

 

[stubbicatt]

Thanks guys for the information. Now I have the data, I just have to process it!

CriagC, I figured I'd get RCBS dies. Are you aware of any issues with that brand of dies if I go 44-40, or is there a better choice? I really like their expander plug setup in other chamberings I load for, granted, those are all Carbide ring type sizers, where the 44-40 ought to be more like any other bottle neck cased dies, I reckon.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood..
You ever try filling hollow base bullets with soft beeswax as a grease cookie? My long barreled 38 WCF Model likes that for some reason. I put a little piece of wax paper over the powder if the shooting match is more than a couple days away.

I gave up on grease cookies once I discovered the Big Lube bullets. More on that in a minute.

What diameter bullets would one choose for either 44-40 or 45 Colt? Guess I'd have to slug the bore of any of said rifles/revolvers to be certain. Is there a mould number that has big old grease grooves that people have had success with?

Here is the answer to all your problems with getting enough grease into a Black Powder bullet. Check out the various molds. There is even one that I designed. No, I do not get any money from sales. Regarding bullet diameter, the groove diameters of my 44-40 rifles are all either .427 or .429. I have compromised at .428 for all my 44-40 bullets. Most 44-40 rifles made by Uberti today are coming out of the box with .429 barrels. But it does help to slug the barrel to make sure.

http://www.biglube.com/Default.aspx

The original 45 Colt brass back during the actual black powder cartridge era and early smokeless period had a very small rim. It was designed for the Colt single action pistol (SAA) and that gun used a rod ejector. Experiments conducted by Winchester back in the 1870s showed that the 45 Colt cartridges of that era did not reliably extract when the firearm was dirty and fouled.

Can you provide a source for that information? Frankly, I don't believe it. Winchester was not the slightest bit interested in chambering a rifle for 45 Colt, the 44-40 cartridge was designed from the ground up as a rifle cartridge. Large rim to expedite extraction, and a tapered shape so they would feed more easily into a rifle chamber. Revolver cartridges do not need to be tapered because they are inserted manually. But to feed in a repeating rifle, a tapered cartridge is a big plus.

Yes, loading 44-40 can be challenging. It is because of the thin brass at the neck. You have to take your time and set your dies carefully. Some swear by a Lee Factory Crimp Die, only seating the bullet with the seating/crimp die, then forming the crimp with the FCD. Also, go slow, don't pull the handle in a hurry. If you jam a 44-40 case against the bottom of the die you will probably ruin it. Go slow so you can feel if it contacts the bottom of the die. I load most of my 44-40s on a standard RCBS die set, not even the fancy 'cowboy dies'. It really does not matter what brand of die you choose. Here is another hint: If you are loading relatively 'fat' bullets because of a large groove diameter, you may find that the brass crumples a bit. Try using an expander from a 44 Mag/44 Sp die set instead of the one that comes with the 44-40 die set. Most 44-40 die sets expand the brass for a .427 barrel. A slightly larger expander, such as one for a .429 barrel such as 44 Mag/44 Sp will expand the neck a tad more, reducing the friction the bullet encounters as it slides into the neck. The friction can cause the case to crumple down below the bullet. Just be sure you give the case a real firm crimp, because you will have less neck tension than normal on the bullet.

I do have a Marlin lever gun chambered for 357 Mag. I mostly shoot 38 Specials out of it. Same story as 45 Colt. The case wall is fairly thick. Under the pressure of a 38 Sp the case does not fully expand to seal the chamber. What's the problem with that? What does it matter if cases come out a little bit sooty?

Here is another thought about fouling. The action of a toggle link rifle such as a Henry, Winchester 1866, or Winchester 1873 has the carrier up front, ahead of most of the action. So any fouling that gets past the shell will be less likely to get into the mechanism. The later guns like the 1886, 1892 or 1894 have a tilting carrier right in the middle of the action. So any crud that gets past the chamber is more likely to foul the action. And a toggle link gun is much simpler to take down than a '86, 92. or 94. The '73 is the easiest of all. One screw to remove the side plates, then everything falls right out.

 

[Float Pilot]

Can you provide a source for that information? Frankly, I don't believe it

I read that someplace or another, and I am not sure if it was Winchester, Marlin or...the Colt company itself when they came out with their short lived, Colt Burgess lever actions.
Probably in an old GUNS magazine in the 1960s. I remember reading that it was not until the 1890s because Colt had a patent on the proprietary 45 Colt ( 45 Army ) cartridge and they would not let anyone else chamber for it until their patent expired.

I just sent an e-mule off to my cousin who works R&D at Winchester / Browning to see if their company historian knows. ( Where he has their prototype 45-90 modern 1886 rifle locked up in his safe)

Maybe an e-mule to the Iron Duke would be worthwhile.

 

[BCRider]

I just started reloading for .44-40. After reading about the issues with thinner wall brass I can't say I've found it to be an issue. But then I read here that Starline brass, which I'm using, is a bit more durable than the other brands. So that may be part of it.

I'm also using a case lube for my sizing which I suspect helps a little. The carbide inserts may not need it but it sure does make the lever feel lighter. And if the lever feels lighter that's less pressure in the casing metal as well.

Like DJ mentioned above I also lube my BP guns with Ballistol. And even on my cap and ball revolvers which I only pull apart and detail clean the action after 3 days of shooting and roughly 100 shots I find that the Ballistol mixes with the fouling just like he describes to form an inky looking smooth lubricant that hasn't bothered the parts at all.

In addition on an 1873 the lifter well is going to act a lot like a fouling guard to keep anything more than a kiss of fouling out of the toggle area in any event. So I really can't see any burning need to fully detail strip and clean every time out.

 

[Float Pilot]

FROG LUBE also works well on Black Powder shooting irons since it is not petroleum based. We tested it up here around salt spray and it work fairly well.

Here in Alaska there are certain animal based fats that work OK for black powder rifles, but most of those which resist colder weather contain a certain amount of natural salt. So you can still run into corrosion problems. Not to mention your rifle smells funky when it gets hot.

 

[CraigC]

I use RCBS dies and have no complaints. Rather than using case lube, I just wipe a thin film of oil on the cases before resizing. No carbide for the WCF's.