Cleaning A pinned-barrel flintlock.
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St8LineGunsmith
Member.
we have always called them wedge pins
nevertheless it is still a pin.
nevertheless it is still a pin.
Pete D.
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pins
Regardless of whether a wedge is a pin or not, it was, I thought, obvious that the OP and responses to it were focused on much finer pins than wedges. The references to substituting finishing nails for the originals is one clue.
Barrels pinned that way are not designed to be removed. Doing so is neither quick nor easy and requires proper punches and more than a modicum of care. Removing and reinstalling them repeatedly is akin to removing a nail from its hole in a wood project and then putting it back - doing it again and again - and expecting it to hold properly. The very fact that shooters have resorted to finishing nails, while resourceful, tells us that the holes have been enlarged by repeated removal/resetting of the pins.
Pete
Regardless of whether a wedge is a pin or not, it was, I thought, obvious that the OP and responses to it were focused on much finer pins than wedges. The references to substituting finishing nails for the originals is one clue.
Barrels pinned that way are not designed to be removed. Doing so is neither quick nor easy and requires proper punches and more than a modicum of care. Removing and reinstalling them repeatedly is akin to removing a nail from its hole in a wood project and then putting it back - doing it again and again - and expecting it to hold properly. The very fact that shooters have resorted to finishing nails, while resourceful, tells us that the holes have been enlarged by repeated removal/resetting of the pins.
Pete
Cosmoline
Member
Well I *START* with finishing nails because they're less liable to bend or rust and because I can shape them to just the right size to fit a particular stock. I haven't noticed any dramatic hole erosion from removing the barrel. The hole for the pin is something you drill before hand so it isn't like you're nailing a hole in a stud. And I also try not to wedge it too tightly otherwise you're creating stock interference with the barrel. They're still fitting snug but not pinching.
It's my understanding that pins WERE intended for removal. That's why they're pins not something more permanent. And over time the hooked breech and wedges replaced them because it was easier to repeatedly remove and replace barrels that way.
Now if you have a primo flinter that you want to keep in absolutely prime condition, removing the pins is not a good idea. Because you can slip and mar the wood with a punch. But my builds ain't in that category ;-)
It's my understanding that pins WERE intended for removal. That's why they're pins not something more permanent. And over time the hooked breech and wedges replaced them because it was easier to repeatedly remove and replace barrels that way.
Now if you have a primo flinter that you want to keep in absolutely prime condition, removing the pins is not a good idea. Because you can slip and mar the wood with a punch. But my builds ain't in that category ;-)
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
thanks for the response cosmoline
I too build muzzleloaders
I think there are two diffrent views of this topic
one being that of the owner ocasional shooter and the other being that of a gunsmith/builder
am just starting a left hand Jaco Hawken project.
ya it wont have any fancy scroll work but I might do some checkering and the pins will be chamfred not to harm the wood when removal for cleaning purposes.
I too build muzzleloaders
I think there are two diffrent views of this topic
one being that of the owner ocasional shooter and the other being that of a gunsmith/builder
am just starting a left hand Jaco Hawken project.
ya it wont have any fancy scroll work but I might do some checkering and the pins will be chamfred not to harm the wood when removal for cleaning purposes.
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St8LineGunsmith
Member.
here is the deal all long guns whether muzzleloader or repeating rifles were designed to seperate the metal parts from the furniture and reveerse the process without being a complex procedure and with a minimal amount of tools for the express purpose of cleaning. I think the term is called "field stripping"
anyway clean your guns however you want.
anyway clean your guns however you want.
Dave Markowitz
Member
That's a wedge and is designed for easy removal. Typically, guns which have the barrel secured with a wedge will also have a hooked breech, allowing easy removal and replacement in the stock.
This is what a pinned barreled gun looks like:
Note the pins which are basically like nails. The left one secures a ramrod pipe while the one closer to the lock is a barrel pin. Further, the breech end is secured to the stock via a screw through the tang. In this gun it's a wood screw, although some others use a screw which extends down through the wrist of the stock and screws into a threaded hole in the trigger plate.
Rifles or muskets like these were never meant to have the barrel removed from the stock as part of regular cleaning. Regularly doing so will cause excessive wear. If you do that enough on a properly inlet longrifle there's a good chance the stock will get damaged.
In fact, militaries during the flintlock period commonly issued combination tools only to sergeants, to minimize the damage privates would do to their guns. Muskets were not commonly field stripped in the same way that modern firearms are now.
St8LineGunsmith was misunderstood, certainly by me and, I believe, several others, by referring to a thick, flat wedge-shaped piece of metal as a 'pin', what I call either a 'wedge' or a 'key'. In my experience a 'pin' (used to secure a barrel in a stock) is a thin, straight piece of wire.
If a 'pin' is a thick, flat, wedge-shaped piece of metal, what is a thin, straight piece of wire used in securing a forestock to a barrel called?
If a 'pin' is a thick, flat, wedge-shaped piece of metal, what is a thin, straight piece of wire used in securing a forestock to a barrel called?
Dave Markowitz
Member
Well, that's why correct terminology is important when asking questions and giving good advice.
AJumbo
Member
Just a passing thought.... before cleaning a pinned-barrel gun, what if one were to get a roll of blue masking tape and apply it to the gap where the stock and barrel meet, around the lock, and any other place where water may seep in? If you're cleaning a high-$$$ firearm, that tape might be pretty cheap insurance.
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
get a piece of surgical tubing that will fit over the nipple this will divert the water out and away from the rifles furniture, you can also put the end of the tube in a bucket of hot soapy water and pump with the ram rod, wrap a dry towel around the muzzle and rod while pumping this will prevent water from spilling over and out on to the stock.
then you can take the drum cleanout screwout and pick and pipe clean after draining the water out of the barrel.
Still IMHO the best and most through way to clean the barrel is to take it off the furniture regardless how it is mounted on the furniture.
In the words of Larry Potterfield...
and that is just the way it is.
then you can take the drum cleanout screwout and pick and pipe clean after draining the water out of the barrel.
Still IMHO the best and most through way to clean the barrel is to take it off the furniture regardless how it is mounted on the furniture.
In the words of Larry Potterfield...
and that is just the way it is.
I have one pinned flintlock, the rest are hooked breach. For the pinned one I rigged up an air compressor nozzle, the type with the rubber tip, to a section of hose that snaps on the kichen sink faucet.
Now all I do is remove the lock and touch hole liner, press the rubber tip against the hole where the touch hole liner sits and blast hot water through the barrel. Makes cleaning a snap and never gets the stock wet.
Now all I do is remove the lock and touch hole liner, press the rubber tip against the hole where the touch hole liner sits and blast hot water through the barrel. Makes cleaning a snap and never gets the stock wet.
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The Williamsburg gunsmiths (Wallace Gusler and Gary Brumfeld) apply beeswax to all interior wood. That includes the mortise for the lock, the area beneath the side plate, patch box, buttplate, trigger guard. Why? Nature flush! Sometimes they put their guns in the creek and walk away.
Now I don't suggest trying it at home, but you can apply beeswax (not the modern stuff with some petroleum added to it but the stuff from a beekeeper) to all wood surfaces as a measure of protection against moisture.
Now I don't suggest trying it at home, but you can apply beeswax (not the modern stuff with some petroleum added to it but the stuff from a beekeeper) to all wood surfaces as a measure of protection against moisture.
Cosmoline
Member
!! If the idea is to avoid a wee ding from removing the pins, I'd say they'd be much better off using a punch and just being careful. There is no comparison bewteen the minor cosmetic injury of a mistake with a small brass punch and what immersion of wood in water can do. Even waxed, it can find routes to seep in and swell the grain, causing no end of damage up to and including splits and cracks. They'd probably call me crazy for removing the barrel, but I think they're crazy!
I think we can resolve the history debate by answering one simple question--who invented the hooked breech and why? Because if there was no practice of popping pins out (with commensurate injury to wood) why would anyone have bothered to create a hook and wedges?
arcticap
Member
The hooked breech goes back at least as far as 1722 in France and 1730-35 in England:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0
In 1820 the Hawken brothers filled an order for 18 rifles having a hooked breech system:
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7317781__50-hawken-rifle.html
Apparently the barrel keys or wedges were called sliding loops, and barrel lugs were called loops:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/255135/
Anyone can register for free to read the entire thread at the MuzzleLoadingForum by following my personal referral link:
---> ---> ---> http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?referral/4225/
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0
In 1820 the Hawken brothers filled an order for 18 rifles having a hooked breech system:
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7317781__50-hawken-rifle.html
Apparently the barrel keys or wedges were called sliding loops, and barrel lugs were called loops:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/255135/
Anyone can register for free to read the entire thread at the MuzzleLoadingForum by following my personal referral link:
---> ---> ---> http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?referral/4225/
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