Suggestions for a Revolutionary War flintlock

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stonecutter2

stonecutter2

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I've become very interested in our country's history. The Appleseed Project is partly to blame :) (I got Rifleman on our first day!).

I've always been a firearms enthusiast, but would like to delve into the black powder area, and specifically with something that would be similar to what was used in the American Revolution.

I see a lot of variety in flintlocks, and of course price points.

So, specifically what I'm looking for is:

  • American Revolution era (can of course be a modern interpretation) - a style similar to what the Americans would have used.
  • Reliable - I don't mind tweaking but I don't want to have some flash in the pan (if I'm lucky) showpiece that's utterly frustrating.
  • Plinker - I'm going to be taking this out and shooting this just for fun. No hunting. Accuracy of course would be ideal - I want it capable of hitting things.
  • Price point - $500-$1000. Herein lies the challenge and why I seek your collective knowledge. I really don't want to pay too much at this point.

That said, I am also a huge Civil War buff. I know that means percussion instead of flintlock. Would anyone have a recommendation for me for a rifle similar to what the Union carried, if you recommend percussion over flintlock?

As I understand it, for newbies, percussion can be cheaper, easier and less problematic than flintlock (correct?). However, I've really been wanting to fire a flintlock on the 4th of July and celebrate our American heritage and firearm history.

Thoughts and suggestions? Thank you very much!
 
Well, here are some thoughts, somewhat disconnected.
1. If you would rather learn things in stages starting with a rifled percussion gun is probably closer to what you're used to than a smoothbore flintlock (with no rear sight!).
2. Cheap flintlocks can be a nightmare.
3. Pedersoli makes a good Brown Bess reproduction that is usually quite reliable and is often on sale at Cabela's for $999. Worst case you might have to get somebody to reharden the frizzen.
4. The other big revolutionary war option would be the French equivalent - smaller caliber, a bit more physically robust. That's the design we built on so if you want to get a civil war gun eventually it'll be pretty similar in appearance. So to my mind that's an argument to get the Bess, just to get some variety.
5. For the civil war gun there are a couple of makers who do 1861 reproductions. It's a good design. The Pedersoli one is easy to find and most people seem happy with it.
6. If you want a cheap but decent percussion gun and aren't too tied into the civil war thing the Lyman Great Plains rifle is the standard recommendation for a first black powder rifle. This is definitely the low hanging fruit to get into the hobby, have a good experience, not spend a fortune, and then you can go right to either the bess or a 1861 or whatever.
7. It's even easier to start with a cap and ball revolver. Get a Pietta 1858 or 1860 reproduction from Cabela's. They're inexpensive and often on sale.
 
There are several price ranges you can look at. The India-made flinter muskets are by far the cheapest. They aren't officially proofed, though some have been unofficially "proofed" by the seller like Middlesex. They can go kaboom but so can the Italians. Generally the workmanship and detailing will not be as fine and you may have to do some fixerupper work like hardening the Frizzen and even drilling the flash hole. The Italian flinters are great, but with the high Euro they are not cheap. Ah for the days of the inflated Lira. Above that there are custom jobs and premium parts kits.

Or if you're not looking for maximum historical accuracy you can go with a generic colonial era rifle. Track sells those kits and you can find various ones on sale complete at Cabelas and other places. Ironically the rifles are cheaper than the muskets nowadays when it comes to flintlocks. Who knows why. Usually they're in the .45 - .50 cal range, don't eat too much powder and are quite surprisingly accurate out to 100-150 yards. There's one model called a "blue ridge" rifle that's a sweetheart even if it isn't really a replica of any particular period rifle. The details on precision replicas can get very technically demanding, since rifle styles morphed from the big bore jaegers to small bore long rifles over the course of the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nothing was really standardized at that point. Not even the screws.

I'd just suggest making sure you're getting one with a roundball friendly slow twist, not a fast twist for modern huting slugs. Roundballs are far easier and cheaper to deal with for a plinker. You just patch them with a lubed cloth, ram them home over 3F and you're good.

For Civil War the situation is much better, because there are a huge number of reenactors out there. You can get nice Italian replicas of rifle muskets or muskets for $600 or so used. And if you bargain hunt you can often find them on sale for not much more. I just picked up a really nice '42 Springfield smoothbore buck-and-ball gun for $700 from Dixie.

I'd suggest cruising GB and Dixie's for sale page. They've always got specials there.
 
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Back to the OP...

If you want something Revolutionary War related, you're looking at a Brown Bess musket, Charleville musket, or a Pennsylvania Rifle. Pedersoli makes OK repros of the first two, their Pennsylvania rifle is fair, not great. Cabelas carries them, but also check Dixie Gun Works and GunBroker.

As to the Great Unpleasantness Between The States, you have a choice between an Enfield and Springfield rifle-musket. The new Pedersoli Enfields are getting good reviews.
 
You might look into a US Model of 1816 or 1822.

While not revolutionary war period, what with the designs being 40 years after the start of the revolution they are flintlocks. Most folks won't know the difference.

Some of each were used by Union forces (Ohio and New Yark come to mind) at 1st Bull Run. There were also European made guns of models that were flintlocks listed among union units at 1st Bull Run but they may or maynot have been converted.

The last I know of flintlocks in any number would be in May of 1865 in the hands of Cadets at Natural Bridge Florida between Tallahassee and St. Marks but they sure weren't union boys. As the West Florida Semenary eventually morphed into Florida State University (including a long stint as a Womens college) the Army ROTC unit at FSU used to have a confederate battle streamer like VMI and the eight The Citadel carries.

I believe Dixie has had those 1816/1822 smooth bore muskets.

-kBob
 
Some more thoughts...
1. If you're considering building a kit make sure you know what you're getting into. Some of them are basically just finish work and assemble. Some of them are basically a collection of parts with no instructions. Not something to do lightly.
2. I'm not so sure about an Indian gun for a first one. Once you have some experience and you're sure if the problem is you or it, sure, but at a minimum expect some troubleshooting.
3. If you buy a gun from a reenactor, be aware that since a lot of them only shoot blanks they don't necessarily maintain things very well. You'll want to inspect carefully.
4. The 1816, mentioned above is an interesting choice and maybe it would be good to elaborate on that a bit. They're basically a knockoff of the 1777 Charleville so they pretty much look exactly like a revolution-era French musket. We made a ton of them through 1840 I think (mine was made in 1836) and many of them were used in the civil war. They desperately needed guns, fast, and there were a few ways they upgraded them - conversion to percussion via multiple methods, sometimes adding a rear sight, sometimes adding shallow rifling.

Pedersoli actually makes a replica of a 1816 converted to percussion via a particular method although I know some people are annoyed at the way they did it (I think the hammer would be proper for a different kind of conversion than the rest of it. I'm sure somebody will chime in.) So that's kind of your all-in-one choice.

Plus Cabelas has it on sale for $800 right now. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pede...cts&Ntt=1816&WTz_l=Header;Search-All+Products


Confused yet? There are a ton of options out there.
 
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I should also mention that most areas have some kind of black powder club and they're typically very friendly to newbies. I know our local one is very welcoming to people showing up with something they bought and have no idea how to use and they'll teach you. So if there is such a group nearby your chances of being successful with one of of the less newbie friendly options goes way up.
 
Today, if I were you, I'd probably look at whomever is making Civil War rifles. SPringfield or English ENfield.

For myself, for the money, I'd probably end up with a Pedersoli Bess but they are not in your price range quite though nice on sale at Cabela's. You'll want the bayonet and sling, maybe a cartridge box. It's smoothbore though. Very different form a period rifle (but what most reenactors use as rank-and-file soldiers or Militia).

Rev War RIFLE? For the money I'd try to find a Cabelas Blue Ridge Flintlock Rifle -- under their own name they are Pedersoli's Frontier Rifle (available at Dixie for $725+) which is their copy of the Hatfield Rifle whose design they took over.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=2021
 
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I am considering a Harpers Ferry Model 1803 from Dixie for my next black as it is a replica of the rifles used by the Lewis and Clarke Corps of Discovery expedition. It is rifled but is not too far removed from revolutionary times. I 2will also echo the comments concerning kits. I have finished two Pedersoli Kits from Dixie. The instructions are mostly nonexistent or at best incomplete but I was able to finish both as very fine firearms that are personalized to me so if you go the way of kit building you should at least have a rudimentary knowledge of woodworking and a basic assortment of hand tools.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_186_190&products_id=890
 
Historically, most of the militia in the Revolution used .75 Brown Bess muskets for the simple reason that that is what the Crown gave them. Later, the American army was backed by the French and received large numbers of .69 French muskets (often called Charleville, but from other arsenals as well), and those became the model for the first U.S. muskets made at Springfield.

The long rifles were of some importance, but were more a "terror weapon" with an impact on British morale than a war winner.

Jim
 
I have and enjoy using a Charleville musket. It is but one option you have for that era. The Brown Bess has been mentioned already. Also used were Committee of Safety muskets, some rifles (not nearly as many as Hollywood or most folks would like to believe) and smooth rifles.

If you are looking for an off the shelf musket to buy, the Bess and Charleville are the only options. Rifles, well they were very individual so buying an off the shelf defeats that purpose unless you customize it a bit. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no factory produced authentic smooth rifle.

If you can get to a match, muster of meet, talk ot some of the folks who are carrying a long arm that intrigues you. They can help steer you, perhaps to someone who is upgrading and needs to sell.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
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Steel Horse Rider said:
...I am considering a Harpers Ferry Model 1803 from Dixie for my next black as it is a replica of the rifles used by the Lewis and Clarke Corps of Discovery expedition...
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There is lots of debate as to what rifle was actually carried by L&C. As much as I like my 1803, it is looking like it did not make the trip.
 
If you don't mind doing a little (lot) of restoration work and fitting, IMA-USA sells original antique Brown Bess components (mated with repro stocks and misc.) in varying categories, from Nepal made to EIC. They also sell '53 Enfields (of foreign provenance) if you're a CSA kinda guy.

Not sure I'd want to put a ton of rounds through one of the Bess's (and I certainly would not be experimenting with heavy loads or BP substitutes), and they won't necessarily be pretty but in the long run you should retain more value with an original or "re-manufactured" original than one of the modern clones. You also get the satisfaction of doing a little (lot) of work yourself instead of just opening a box...
 
If you just want one go with an 1816 springfield. The springfields were based off the French charlevilles (used by the americans in the rev war) and also used in the civil war, both in flint and percussion.
 
To bridge the gap

You could also look for a Harper's Ferry 1803 rifle (Euroarms made a reproduction, and you can still find them around), which was based off of rifle designs from the revolution, was carried by Lewis and Clarke on their expedition, and saw use in both flintlock and precussion conversion forms during the early stages of the Civil War. I know a guy who has an original, and supposedly it is a phenomenal design capable of some great accuracy.

Just a thought. :)

-Chris
 
EljaySL said:
Don't you love it when people don't read the other replies before answering?
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Ha, it's all good.

I appreciate everyone chiming in - so much to read about!

I just want to give things a thorough enough look over so that I make a good choice.

I like the cheaper cap and ball revolver route, as there are some sweet modern shooters available - but i don't know, i'm really just feeling the draw to the musket. I think it takes you back to another time more effectively (and I want to have that historical feeling to it when I do shoot it on occasion).

The IMA-USA stuff is intriguing. But a lot of their parts are listed as "not intended for firing" - so i'm not sure i want to put that much time into swapping parts out and stuff. The fact that it is actually from the time that our country was founded is really pretty amazing though - and for such reasonable prices!
 
If you search out the IMA-USA stuff, you will find many differing opinions on the quality of the items. Some feel it is safe and sound, others do not want to be near them when they are fired.
 
StrawHat said:
If you search out the IMA-USA stuff, you will find many differing opinions on the quality of the items. Some feel it is safe and sound, others do not want to be near them when they are fired.
Click to expand...
Interesting.

My biggest concern is even if they've sat around for ages and seem to be intact after cleaning, metallurgy has probably come a long way since when those locks and barrels were made. I doubt I would trust the barrel, but how cool would it be to have a lock made in 1776?

I think I'm whittling it down to the following:

Lyman Great Plains Rifle (so much goodwill for this, it's worth a serious consideration)
Pedersoli 1816 Harper's Ferry
Pedersoli Brown Bess

What's somewhat complicated is that I live in Illinois and black powder is considered a firearm, and as such I believe I'll have to do a transfer through a dealer :\ Any chance someone from Illinois has experience on how this would proceed?

Snide remarks about Illinois citizenship not required, but always worth it for a good laugh :)
 
You know, I think you would enjoy any of those very much. It's just a question of how much you want to spend now and to what extent you want to jump into the deep end. Plus maybe what's on sale this week.

In Illinois you might also consider that flintlocks require actual black powder, not substitutes, and I don't know how easy that will be to find or if they'll ship it to your location.
 
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