Close Defensive Fire Positions (With Pics)

[Thumper]

Denny,

Can you address the Humphries/Thumb thing? Just curiosity on this end.

 

[okjoe]

If the pics are not tongue in cheek, what is the reason for not pulling the trigger two or three times and then doing the strike move if still needed.

Put another way, would it not be better to do shoot first and then do the strike/grab moves if still needed, as that would/should enable you to go to other targets?

If one was out of ammo, or using a five shot revolver with one or two chambers carried empty as I understand was a practice in the olden days, there could be a valid reason for striking to set the enemy up for a killing shot, but IMHO, even that has somewhat of a hollow ring to it.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Umm, gunshots don't stop forward momentum. Attempting to go for the gun first during a close range attack, without bringing unarmed skills into play greatly increases the likelihood of you getting hurt and/or dead before you can inflict pain or damage on your aggressor.

It's the unarmed applications that allow you to bring the gun into play.

 

[m2hb]

Several of the photos suggest to me that they might work well against an opponent who happens to be standing static in front of our hero. But it seems quite likely that the left arm will simply collapse in a heap if the attacker is an NFL linebacker coming in for a sack (assuming that you don't get bowled over completely). The elbow shield and associated stance are clearly the strongest structurally. In addition, the shield combines an elbow strike with protection of the head and neck, which none of the other techniques accomplish. A fight isn't necessarily 1 v 1. The attacker's buddy, whose bravery is enhanced by the opportunity for a sucker shot, just might try to clock your computer from the blind side.

The horizontal elbow looks ok, but IMO it is structurally weak against a downward force that can collapse the arm into the muzzle.

I like the tiger claw to the face as a pre-emptive strike to create some space (especially if I move off the line of force and end up on the attacker's flank), but the elbow shield looks better for overall striking, weapon retention, and covering up at bad breath distance.

YMMV.

 

[Paul Gomez]

m2hb,

Some good observations. I agree, the elbow shield offers the most benefit, which is why it is my preferred technique. Realize that the techniques are ,almost unilaterally, done as strikes. The short axhand isn't merely a brace, it's a strike which generally (for me) winds up catching the aggressor in the neck/throat/underside of chin. The horizontal elbow is used as a battering ram, with the ability to uncoil the hand for striking at slightly greater distances. As with all things, there are pros and cons to each technique. That's why I wanted to show an assortment of techniques for everyone to look at.

 

[m2hb]

Yes, all the techniques work fine as strikes. But the shield provides bracing for free. In close quarters, controlling your space is very important for weapon retention. If the attacker can't reach your gun in the first place (or must overextend to do so, putting him off-balance and/or mechanically weak to apply any useful force), that is a major issue that you don't have to worry about.

I do not dispute the capability of the horizontal elbow as a battering ram. But the vertical elbow is just as good, but is far less susceptible to collapsing downward into the path of my muzzle and also protects the head as well.

Bad breath to boxing distance transitions for strikes sound good in principle. But if I have created enough distance to require a boxing style reach to hit my attacker, I'd rather continue to increase the reactionary gap and transition to my gun rather re-closing the distance and dangling an appendage out in front of my muzzle that might get shot off.

 

[Partisan_Ranger]

There is a move that was used by the late great Bruce Lee and those that learned Jeet Kun Do that is very affective in gaining and loosing distance. It is called a forward & rearward burst. One can cover the distance of 10ft or more in the blink of an eye. It does take practice to become second nature. But once it does, the action takes place so quickly you can even stun yourself how fast that you are. Would be a very ideal movement to invest some time in. Infact a lot of the blocks, counters and strikes taught in Jeet Kun Do would be very helpful for the ultra close shooting being discussed here.

Just my 00.02 cents worth,
Partisan Ranger

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The question I keep asking is, "Where is the opponent's weapon? What is he doing with it?"

If he doesn't have one, then the use of deadly force is going to be questionable. If he does have one, then any move that brings you into closer contact seems destined to fail.

 

[WheelMan]

Hey all you trainin' guys

I have absolutely zero formal training in smashing people in the face with my gun, holding them in place while I shoot them, pulling down their pants while I smash them in the face and shoot them and the other fun things you guys do (though I'd like to), but I have a question.

Has there ever been any though to operating your pistol with your weak hand, so your strong hand is availble for all the grabbing and eye poking and punching and whatnot? any signifigant advantage to that? I would think it would be pretty easy to train yourself to weak hand shoot at contact distance as well as you could with your strong hand.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Physical techniques are integrated with firearm techniques to allow you to deal with immediate, in your face, aggression where either time or distance do not allow you to fully present your weapon. They are also used when the decision to fire has not been made [ie an unknown person is suddenly in your space but does not appear to be posing a lethal threat, but must be controlled,moved etc to allow yo to deal with a known threat]. They are also used to more effectively deal with multiple aggressors. Additionally, they can be utilized to foil the attempt by the aggressor to bring a weapon into play [ie close range confrontation, your movement has been impeded and the aggressor is attempting to draw a weapon].

Realize that most crimes against individuals occur at very close ranges, generally inside of 5 feet. When reacting at that range, the advantages to closing the gap, instead of trying to create distance, are tremendous. Of course, if your only mental framework for defensive skills is shooting at 7yds (the mythic 21 feet), you will be way behind the power curve when having to respond to a situation at 5 feet.

Wheelman,

The main problem with practicing off-hand shooting and gun-hand striking is that most people carry their gun on the side of their body that they shoot with (right hand shooter, right side carry), so it is impractical to assume that you will be able to get to a gun carried for right hand/right side access into a firing grip with your left hand while performing some sort of gross motor (striking, covering or intercepting) action with your right hand in the face of close range interpersonal aggression.

 

[WheelMan]

Certainly, but what if you carried your weapon weak side? Would there be a signifigant advantage to using your strong hand for the grappling/striking manuevaers?

 

[Paul Gomez]

I don't see a significant advantage one way or the other. Most people don't practice enough with their primary hand shooting, much less with both shooting or with either incorporating striking and shooting so I think that, for most people, the training time expended simply striking with the hand they don't normally shoot with will yeild better results, more quickly, than trying to train up their off hand shooting and strong hand striking.

 

[Paul Gomez]

And one more pictures thread from the past.

 

[Island Beretta]

Paul, I know these are just pictures but I noticed that you were square-on to the attacker, why not off-center? As I see it your gun is available for a grab or a kick..

 

[Paul Gomez]

Off-angling is great if you can get it, but most of the time you are responding to his attack [you are surprised, unawares, failed to maintain Condition Yellow...it happens to everyone]. In those instances, you often don't have the time to consciously off-angle, just respond.

Realize, also, that the key in any sort of CDF is forward drive and aggression. He aggressed on you. You covered up, struck him [to buy you the time for weapons access] and drew your weapon. He is in no position to kick your gun and you can put rounds on threat. If you overly angle your body, you would have to adjust your gun position to get rounds on him. This, again, increases the number of variables that you have to process to solve the problem.

 

[Warren]

Great stuff. I asked a question about this sort of thing in another thread and this answers it perfectly.

After doing the elbow shield would it make sense to then move into a tiger claw?

 

[Paul Gomez]

A favorite sequence of mine is, after going to a vertical elbow shield with the nongun hand, tiger claw with the gun hand [once, twice, three times, whatever seems right], then unfold your nongun hand and reach across his torso to his opposite side shoulder/arm; spinning him inboard as you access your gun to Retention Position and engaging him, if need be, with rounds into his side and back from Retention Position.

Another option would be to extend the vertical elbow into a chopping axhand or to extend the vertical elbow and cradle the backside of his head with that hand and drive an elbow into his head with the rightside elbow [assuming that you are a righthanded fighter and your left arm was performing the vertical elbow].

 

[Warren]

I've got kids that I have taught a few things:

First is situational awareness.

Second is retreat if possilbe.

Third if the above fails you grab something of the BG and twist it the wrong way and/or attack up the middle. Go for the groin, sternum, neck, and eyes depending on what they can reach at the time.

Since they do not carry weapons and will not need to reach for one would it make sense to do a two armed elbow shield as the bully or attacker charges in?

It would protect both sides of the head and leaves both hands available for clawing.

I'm assuming the BG has a height advantage and my kids elbows would hit somewhere between the waist line and the solar plexus.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Funny you should ask this question, as I was discussing something in this vein with a friend of mine just the other day.

A Double Elbow Shield, or any other sort of symmetrical response, is easier to learn than an asymmetrical response. The downside is that it is very common to see people 'hunker down' with a symmetric response and 'take the shots' rather than counterattacking.

For a child, I'd probably go with a Double Elbow Shield and encourage them to attack the lowline with stomps. That way, they have coverage on their head and face and can access targets without breaking the cage they've established around their head when dealing with a larger opponent. For someone their own size, they can cycle elbow strikes which will still provide protection to their head and face. According to our local school policy, the above response would not constitute a 'fight' since no 'punches with the hand' were thrown.

Of course, by their policy, my daughter could throw knees, chinjabs and axhands all day and not be guilty of 'fighting', go figure.

 

[Warren]

Cool, I'll start on that right away.

Though my littlest one is so kind and gentle, getting her to participate is difficult.